Balanced Bites Podcast: Episode #12: WAPF, Traditional Foods, Fat Soluble Vitamins, Why Liz Ate Bread, Raw Milk & Bag It Movie Plastics

Episode #12

Discussion Topics:
Liz's report on the 12th Annual Weston A. Price Foundation Wise Traditions Conference.

Links:

Weston A. Price Foundation (WAPF)
Chris Masterjohn’s site, blog and site for WAPF
Denise Minger – Debunking The China Study and Forks Over Knives.
Paul Jaminet – Co-Author of The Perfect Health Diet
US Wellness Meats – Frass-fed meats shipped directly to you.

On WAP & Paleo from Liz's blog.
Green Pastures Skin Balm & Liz's post on Skin care.
Bag It– movie on plasticsTraditional Foods posts

Traditional Foods
CGE Liver Pate Recipe Post
BB Liver Info & Paté Recipe Post
CGE Bone Broth Post
BB Bone Broth Post
CGE Beef Tongue Recipe Post 

Find out more about RAW MILK at www.realmilk.com

More info on calcium (a nutrient people worry about NOT getting without  dairy in their diet).
Liz's post for Steve's Original on Calcium
Diane's post on Non-Dairy sources of Calcium

Click here to download the episode as an MP3.

The episodes are currently available in iTunes, Stitcher & Blog Talk Radio.

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LIZ WOLFE: Hey everybody, I'm Liz Wolfe, sidekick to Diane Sanfilippo of Balanced Bites, and welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast. Just a fun little reminder: the materials and content contained in this podcast are for general health information only, and they are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. However, you may use any and all jokes in this podcast as long as they are properly attributed. So Diane, what's going on with you?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Hey, I'm officially moved East. It feels actually anti-climatic.

LIZ WOLFE: Woo-hoo!

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I've been here so much over the last six months or so that people are like, oh, does it feel weird to be back? I'm like actually, it feels totally normal, so…

LIZ WOLFE: Yep.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I'm back in New Jersey.

LIZ WOLFE: We're glad to have you back.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I kind of joke…yeah. It's actually really nice to be in the same time zone.

LIZ WOLFE: Yes.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But yeah, I kind of joke that moving back to New Jersey, you know, I work with a lot of different kinds of people and sometimes vegetarians who or even vegans, usually vegetarians, maybe they've been that way for about 7 years, and they never thought they'd eat meat again, and I'm like, I understand because I never thought I would say I was moving back to New Jersey from San Francisco. [laughs] And I think…I know, it's so crazy and so many people are like, I can't believe you would move back, but you know, friends and family, and kind of the whole people first notion. I wrote a blog post about this, that it really does matter, you know, where the people are that you want to be around, and I certainly have a good handful of amazing friends back in San Francisco who I'll definitely miss, and do my best to keep in really good touch with, but yeah, I just felt like I had to be here for a lot of reasons, so yeah, I'm here. Hanging out.

LIZ WOLFE: Yay!! And this is what I think is funny, Diane, is that now we're in the same time zone, so we don't have-one of us does not have to be up at, you know, the crack of whenever, but we have chosen, you know, we're literally recording at dawn.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Well, not quite dawn. 9 AM, but it feels like dawn. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, and it's funny because [laughs] I posted this on the Facebook page yesterday that we were trying to record potentially yesterday evening, but after around 8 o'clock, I just like faded out completely.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And yeah, my whole adrenal care protocol has been so, like this week's specifically…I just moved back last week, teaching this weekend, have a friend in town, have my high school reunion, like so much stuff going on, and Monday, I was just like tanked out, I mean I think I napped twice on Monday, and you know, by yesterday, like in the evening, 8 o'clock, I was so exhausted I think I was probably asleep by 9:30. [laughs] So us trying to record a podcast at 9 pm would not really have worked out too well. So yeah, here we are, 9 am, recording [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Totally.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's my scoop. Yeah. I don't know. So let's hear, what's your thing?

LIZ WOLFE: So where is [xxx 3:24]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh, so I just started up…I would say in the last couple of months, I ended getting a really random early text message from a friend who was at a competition over at Brazen Athletics over in Fairfield and it was like a 5 gym combined competition, and she was like, we need someone to fill in, can you come check it out? Come help us. And I was like, yeah, sure. So I filled in for this team and I just like…I just absolutely loved all the people who were at this competition. I thought it was so amazing to be, you know, in an environment where the gyms are super friendly with each other, they run competitions together, and they just-they sort of co-mingle all the time. Like I never know when I walk in, like who from what other gym might be there, which is really, really fun. So yeah, I'm trazing-yeah, trazing…training at Brazen Athletics in Fairfield, NJ, really fun place, Chase and Schroder and Christy Link are the co-owners there, just amazing people, and just kind of community that they've built between just being super…it sounds weird, but just super nurturing people, like…I mean, people come in and leave almost every single person with some kind of like hug or affectionate greeting…

LIZ WOLFE: Awww.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But it's hardcore training while you're there. But everyone's just like, so happy to see you and I just think it's an awesome community so I'm just thrilled to be a part of that.

LIZ WOLFE: And yeah, that's very, very cool.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Where are you training now? Are you…are you at CrossFit Tribe?

LIZ WOLFE: I train and I am the nutrition advisor at CrossFit Tribe, which is in Pennsauken, New Jersey and actually it kind of overlaps…we share training space with Steve's Club, which is the 501c3 organization affiliated with PaleoKits, so basically…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Nice.

LIZ WOLFE: anytime anybody purchases a PaleoKit, it supports the training…the CrossFit training of actually at-risk youth from the area, and the program's nationwide now. Lee Knight, an awesome chick, but Is a trainer at Tribe as well as the National Program Director for Steve's Club is taking care of kind of the national roll out stuff along with Steve and so I also serve as their nutrition advisor and I do some nutrition articles at their blog at StevesOriginal.com as well as my own, so…part of the reason I haven't been able to post too much at Cave Girl Eats-I'm lingering at about once a week, maybe twice, and for the most part, I'm just stringing a bunch of nonsense gourds together that make absolutely no sense, maybe throwing in a Princess Bride reference here and there, but it's busy stuff around here. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, it's really hard keeping all this stuff going, you know. Tons of respect for those of us, you know, who like…I know Robb's got tons of work going on between like his blog and podcasts and all of that, you know. I think it's really fun for us to have this forum and this venue for us to kind of talk about things because I've heard a lot of feedback from our listeners that you know, it helps them to gain insight into who we are and our perspective to kind of get to know us together, but it's a ton of work to do this and do, you know, maintain a blog and kind of put posts up and then you know, I'm working on my book, which I'm kind of like Holy Jeez…

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I cannot believe-I like I constantly have new blog posts that I want to write because I feel like there's so much relevant content that I want to share with people and it's a never ending list in my head, and then I'm like well, how do I not do that, and focus on-focus on writing, you know…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: just to keep my attention in one place, but yeah. And then, you know, stuff like I've got, you know, holiday gift guide I'll be putting out pretty soon, and I know, Steve's Original-we actually-I did a blog post on Steve's Club and PaleoKits, I think it was last week, if I can even remember when I wrote those things.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But yeah, he sent a bunch of stuff for me to try, which was awesome. I really liked a bunch of it and cracked out on a bunch of it. [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I probably ate everything he sent within a couple of days and shared very little of it with anyone else. [laughs] But yeah, we'll have some kind of giveaway coming up from them soon because I would love for people to kind of just spread the word and get to know more about that organization, and just really, I love that you can get something that's kind of Paleo snack to have when you're on the go or whatnot, and to also support a really good cause. I think that's pretty amazing, so.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Good stuff.

LIZ WOLFE: As somebody who actually kind of moves and functions within that environment, like the kids are amazing. We took a couple kids to the CrossFit Games to participate in the youth competition. CrossFit has been really, really great. Reebok has been amazing. It's just opening doors I mean that I think are really going to lead to some good stuff for these kids. They're just awesome kids that deserve some good opportunity, and they deserve to throw some weights around.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Totally.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So you were at the Weston A. Price Foundation conference recently, right?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I was.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Is that why I couldn't get in touch with you? No, I'm kidding.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, exactly, I was…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I was like, where's Liz?

LIZ WOLFE: incommunicado because I was hanging out with a bunch of raw milk people singing Kumbaya. No, I'm kidding.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: But it was-it was fricking amazing. I mean, I've been a member of the Weston A. Price Foundation for about…at least a year now.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: And basically I mean, a lot of us I think Paleo/Primal/Real Food people are familiar with Denise Minger from Raw Food SOS. She's the one that did a really just comprehensive like tear-down of the China Study as well as Forks Over Knives, so I would definitely encourage you to seek out her stuff. I have a lot of vegan/vegetarian friends that are constantly chatting about whole grains and soy on Facebook, and every time they do it, and talk about the China Study, I just want to say, “Have you seen this?” You know, because T. Colin Campbell really did mess-not a whole lot respectable with that particular body of work, and it's actually kind of funny. I went to Barnes & Noble the other day, and saw one copy of The Paleo Solution on the shelf next to about 12 copies of The China Study, so [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hmmm. Interesting.

LIZ WOLFE: We're outselling The China Study, it appears, so that's pretty cool. I got to hang out a little bit with Chris Masterjohn who is a doctoral candidate, I think, Connecticut. Nutrition. He's brilliant.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: I think he's the most incredible genius I've ever spoken to. He-and not only when you know when you're talking to people that are absolute geniuses, a lot of times they're not super interested in context, if that makes sense…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm. Yup.

LIZ WOLFE: But just like Robb and like Mat LaLonde, I know that you're buddies with him, and Chris. I mean, they can provide so much context from historical context. I mean, Chris was talking about some different kind of social programs like the 3rd Reich, and I don't know, I've got that wrong for sure, but talking a lot about all of these kind of events in history that precipitated where we are now.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: Nutrition-wise, food system-wise, and medically and things like that and his stuff is amazing. He's at cholesterol-and-health.com. Cholesterol-dash-and-dash-health.com. And his blog and his second blog for the Weston A. Price Foundation are dedicated to talking about all the things that we love like cholesterol, saturated fat, and being super duper awesome.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: So I encourage you to check out his stuff. Paul Jaminet was there from the Perfect Health Diet, the U.S. Wellness Meats crew was there. I mean, it was just-there were a lot of Paleo folks there. I saw a couple of your t-shirts walking around, Diane…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Bacon is Rad.

LIZ WOLFE: The Bacon is Rad, yeah. Lot of Vibrams and you know, the coolest thing, and I could go on about this for awhile, so interrupt me at any point, but for those that aren't super familiar with the Weston A. Price Foundation, it's basically dedicated to kind of spreading the word about the work of this dentist named Weston A. Price, who in the 1930s traveled-literally traveled the entire world, looking at different, like indigenous native cultures who were not necessarily quote unquote touched by the foods of modern commerce, refined flour, refined sugar, things like that. Trying to find out what made them healthy. And I know a lot of us just kind of-we sought out things like Paleo and a lot of people sought out the Weston A. Price Foundation as a means of recovery, so on some of these degenerative issues, you know, problems that were in a lot of ways caused by poor diet and a lot of the things that we kind of come up against in the modern world, everything from chemical exposure to just generally not having those values of being healthy instilled in us from the time we're young. But on the flip side, Weston A. Price actually traveled trying to find out how healthy people stay healthy, and looking at the commonalities between all these different cultures across the world. I mean, he was in Switzerland, he was in Africa, he was in Australia, and what he noticed during his travels was A. these people had nearly perfect dentition, perfect teeth, wide faces, really just beautiful vibrant people. And what really hit me about that when I first heard about, you know, the Foundation was, and this is so lame, I was like, you mean they didn't need braces?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Like you know, to me it's like everybody has crooked teeth until they get them straightened, you know, except for my husband, but he's a freak of nature and he, I mean, just basically descended from a cloud, I think, when he was born. But yeah, so I was just like fascinated by that, that you could literally be out of modern civilization, have not a single dentist appointment your entire life, and have perfect, healthy teeth, And so I started reading and basically what Weston A. Price discovered was that these people had an extremely high intake of cholesterol, an extremely high intake of the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K. He discovered that they basically lived long, healthy disease-free lives, and what does that sound like? It sounds a lot like Paleo principles.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: And they have an incredible network of researchers. I highly, highly encourage you to join. I mean, not just to support the Foundation, but because you get this awesome quarterly journal that has some phenomenal information in it that I'm going to share in a minute that we'll all be very excited about. My pork information. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: But I think it's $40 or $25, something like that and you get these quarterly journals that are just stuffed with nutrition information, activism. They support the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund, which is huge. I mean, a lot of farmers, small purveyors of food come under, you know, a lot of government persecution really for what they're trying to do. It's not exclusive to raw milk. So they-they're just doing a lot of work in sustainability and they're really well versed in taking care of babies, making perfect babies as they say, so you know, and the cool thing is, I got to spend some time with the publicist, with a friend of mine, Laura, who is awesome. She's a student, she's going to become a Registered Dietitian here in a couple of years and she's super Paleo-oriented and so, so excited about it. She was raised in a Weston A. Price household and she's really excited about merging the Paleo and Weston A. Price in a big way, which I know a lot of us-there's a lot of overlap at this point already, but I think, you know, I think that we have a lot of common goals that would make it a really exciting kind of combination. I've written about it before on my blog, but we're basically-all of us are kind of the Power Rangers of the Foodocalypse, so I'm really excited about that.
But yeah, I got to spend some time with the publicist at Weston A. Price. She's super excited about the potential for cross-over, all of the young people, the young, fit people in the Paleo/primal communities who are starting to get really excited about Weston Price, and I think there are going to be a lot of really cool opportunities in the future to kind of cross-over and get some cool stuff done, so…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I think it's cool to see that cross-over, too. Even just this morning I was kind of having this tweet conversation back and forth with the guy who runs CeliacTravel.com. I've referenced that website a couple of times and in my Gluten Guide that I have…it's a PDF guide on my resources page. I definitely point to that website because people can head over there and get some travel cards for, you know, whatever country they're going to. But just in conversation this morning, he said he's been Paleo for about 3 years, and I was like, wow, that's really cool. You know….

LIZ WOLFE: So cool.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: He probably started this whole thing-yeah-as a gluten free celiac endeavor, but I think we've seen a lot of cross-over between that community and the Paleo community, and I think seeing the cross-over between the Weston A. Price and Paleo community because it really is all, you know, it's all coming from the same place. Like how can we use food in the most natural, traditional way to achieve the best health we can in a modern world and I think, you know, I think my educational background was actually, you know, nicely well-rounded in the sense that the school that I went to, you know… I know your school had that Weston A. Price, their whole perspective was sort of more based on a Weston A. Price Foundation point of view. Whereas my school actually…I think it originated with a much more vegetarian perspective and what I found to be really valuable was in the classroom, my two instructors, and I think I've said this before, but my two main instructors were very Weston A. Price-oriented themselves. One of whom had a bunch of multiple chemical sensitivities that led her to a mostly Paleo diet, even to the exclusion of most nuts and seeds. So you know I was not really a black sheep, you know, too much according to the instructors. They got it, like what I was doing even though to the rest of the class, I was totally like on the edge.
But our materials that we learned from were really not specifically Paleo-oriented, which I think is great because I think it gives you this whole other perspective, and so you know, when I kind of came out and started teaching people about things like raw kraut and pate-liver pate, it was like, that's not to say that I'm the first one to ever do that in the Paleo community because I certainly don't think I am. But I really think it's been important and it's been really well instilled across the community ever since. I mean, it's probably been at least a year I've been talking about this stuff if not longer, and I think people are really kind of…they are hungry for that additional deeper information, like not just eat vegetables, nuts and seeds and fruit, low starch, no sugar. Like beyond that whole thing it's okay, where's the nutrient density? What are the foods we haven't been eating for the last 20, 30 years of our lives, even longer. Even looking back to like the things that I've had tended to promote are things that I used to eat as a kid. Like my family, we ate liverwurst. We ate a lot of smoked fish and you know, we ate pickled foods and all these kinds of things that like just kind of disappeared over I would even say the last 20 years in my own diet.
And it's just, I think it's just awesome to kind of bring it all back together and be able to have these conversations across people where, you know, you're not trying to really alienate people, and you know, I did see a comment in one of our reviews about like us, you know, constantly having sort of negative things to say about a vegan or a vegetarian lifestyle. And I, you know, I don't really care to question someone who feels healthy and is happy with their lifestyle…

LIZ WOLFE: Right.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: and isn't experiencing any ill health. Like that's their prerogative. Do whatever makes you feel good and that you enjoy. you know, it's when you're not healthy that I obviously am getting questions. You know, we're getting them through the podcast. And we address things because you and I think both kind of believe that animal foods are a major part of health to human animals. With that being said, I think that, and this is probably something that you may have heard from Denise, and it's in her, Denise Minger's Ancestral Health Symposium talk, you know, the stuff that unifies us is more what we're avoiding in terms of like, bad modern foods. You know, seed oils and sugar and refined grains, and you know, even if some people experience fair health or you know, even great health eating sprouted, soaked, fermented grains as Weston A. Price Foundation people might recommend, you know, I'm not going to tell you don't experience good health from that. I can't tell you that. You can tell me, but you know, if we know that most people do better without that stuff then we kind of find that cross-over and see where people kind of land and what makes them happy and sustainable in their everyday life. But I really like that we're talking about all that, that we're keeping the communication open and I think raw milk is another really big topic and you know, that's not something that would be…it's a really hot topic in Paleo community, you know, and I've always kind of come at it with I think it's a good whole food source, and I think that from my more Weston A. Price Foundation background. You know, educational background, but yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I mean you've been talking about like crowd, and I think, you know, one of the first things I read from you was talking about broth. And this is one of the topics that we really, when we were sitting down with some of the Paleo-oriented folks, the publicist from Weston A. Price, we were talking about kind of how we felt, and especially Laura, the future RD who's real passionate about this, is kind of the Paleo Plus idea, where, and you know, unfortunately, the Paleo Diet book, which is a great book, and huge respect to Loren Cordain for getting all this stuff out there again, like ten years ago, kind of creating that revitalization. But the book does say lean meats, canola oil, vegetables, things like that, low saturated fats…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think the new version is excluding canola oil, so that's a good thing.

LIZ WOLFE: Which is a very good thing. But I think a lot of people land there at first just because they pop it in Amazon, the Paleo Diet.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: They find the book and they buy it, and I think that the broth, the organ meats, the cod liver oil, even the raw milk, the proper preparation of foods, the fermented foods. like those are all things that Weston A. Price is 100% all about.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: If you need wisdom on how to make your own fermented foods, kombucha, you know, what broth is all about. Even head over to their website, pop almost anything in the search box, and they will have said something about it from a holistic perspective…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: from a nutrient dense perspective and that's totally the way, since I've first your work, Diane, and you've been geared in that direction. It's just a really cool thing because it really is something that for some people maybe, and maybe people that just kind of start from that CrossFit gym, 30 day challenge paradigm, where they're still kind of stuffing. You know, sometimes kind of stuffing old behaviors into kind of a shiny new box, if that makes sense. I mean, I certainly did it. You really…it's great, you know, to try and move in that direction, but taking it even further to really incorporating these amazing nutrient dense foods is-it's like double the reward.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: And I know a lot of people-I'm not perfect with that, but I know a lot of people are doing this, but it's so rewarding, you know?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, yeah, what I think is important about it too is that since like the work of Weston A. Price was, you know, obviously Cordain's were happening in a more modern time, and Weston A. Price was happening longer ago, but Cordain's happened in a modern time, but he's looking farther back…

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And I like that the Weston A. Price work like focusing on this fermented foods, the broth, the, you know, organ meats, all that kind of stuff. What it actually does is sort of bridges the gap between okay, you know, in maybe Paleo times, we could eat these whole foods and not experience modern disease because, you know, it wasn't modern times anyway, but we could remain pretty healthy and robust, but what we're facing today is totally different. Like we are in a modern world, so in order to get more nutrient density packed in, and to make up for the last however many years of like barren nutrient density. You know, we're eating Pop Tarts and cereal, and you know, Yoplait yogurt with high fructose corn syrup and all these foods that we thought were healthy. It's almost like a lot of us are playing catch up, you know. How many of us weren't breastfed…

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: If we were, it was for a few days, and then we were moved to formula. How many times was that soy formula? It's like, you know, it's not to make everyone feel bad about those things, but it's to recognize that like, look, you've got some catching up to do and so just eating meat and vegetables and fruit, nuts and seeds, all that stuff will get you a long way to obviously removing the bad food, but less sort of, and especially for those who don't want to take supplements, which I understand it, but we're at a disadvantage. We're working with sort of a negative balance and getting those foods in, the mineral rich bone broth, super nutrient rich pate or liver, if you want to cook It up just straight up, whatever floats your boat. Getting in plenty of egg yolks, you know, fermented foods for probiotic and super concentrated, you know, vitamin C content, all that stuff. It's just…this is something that people need to start recognizing is, you know, it's a little bit of a bigger challenge than we think and going back to eating whole food is always primary, but I think, even before people get so kicked out on a million supplements, it's like are you also eating super nutrient dense foods. And those are the foods that I tend to call like superfoods.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: As opposed to like a goji berry, you know? I'll call liver a superfood or I'll call…

LIZ WOLFE: [xxx 27:06]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I'm like, I'm not really…fine, eat it if you want to, but I think you know paying attention to some of these other foods that really have just been ignored a bunch in the last, I'd say 30 years, even 50 years. So…

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO:Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: I think part of the dairy question, starting to realize we really…you do find a lot of people who are just vehemently kind of against dairy, you know. We're the only species that drinks another species' milk and d-d-d-duh, but if you kind of put it in context, this is really, you know, I'm really extrapolating here, but we don't move around. You know? We're not nomads. We're not hunter-gatherer-type whatever. So basically if you look at the nutrients that are contained in really good high quality full fat raw dairy, you're looking at vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin K2, which is hugely important in calcium regulation, I mean. The vitamin K2 is really absent in everything except for like vitamin 2-MK-4, which is the form that we're looking for. You're not going to find it in fermented plants food. I know a lot of people think you can get K2 from like natto, but that's a different form. It's MK-7, so vitamin K2-MK-4. You can get that from goose liver. You can get that from regular liver. Basically organ meats. Liver is really rich in vitamin A. Cod liver oil is really rich in vitamins A and D. But are you going to kill the cow and eat the liver, or are you going to keep the cow and drink the milk, and get many of those of same nutrients from the milk. So I get it. Like that makes sense to me. That's a cost benefit thing, so you know, judging the whole dairy thing without contextualizing it. Like we do a lot of things that allow us to stay in one place and get the kind of greatest benefit for the least cost. So you know, there you go.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: More power to you if that's what you want to do, but get good dairy.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I think I'm a dairy friend, too, you know. Perhaps a lot of this has to do…and I know, like I know Chris Kresser's really big on raw dairy. I think, you know, about sourcing it from certain kinds of cows, like an A2 cow vs. an A1, I'm not very well versed on it. I just don't personally…I don't really need to seek out much raw milk for myself as part of my diet. I don't think it does too well in my system, so I just, you know, haven't done tons of research on it. And I think those who eat it and consume it more regularly will have more to say about it. But I think that ort of the same way when the original Paleo Diet might say, okay, lean meats, it's assuming that otherwise what you're eating are fatty meats from grain fed cows.
You know, similarly saying not to eat dairy at all for a lot of reasons is potentially, and you know, I don't know, but this is an estimation, potentially assuming either conventional dairy or even just organic conventional dairy. I mean, I consider organic to be like barely a step above conventional.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Those cows are not raised any differently. They just may have-they may not have received injections. You also don't know what kind of feed they have. Apparently the feed of the animals you're eating..

LIZ WOLFE: Probably organic corn.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, you don't-they don't even need to disclose the ingredients in the feed.

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Even in order to be called organic, so it just means maybe there are no injections of hormones or, you know, they're eating things that weren't grown in pesticides, but that doesn't mean that they might not potentially eating some sort of hormone content. They're not raised in any sort of you know, pastured way. I think that that's all, to me, like okay, let's avoid that kind of stuff, most of the time, as much as we can because we just know that that's not how animals should be raised, and so eating any by-product of that, you know, is less than ideal, but I think that the whole raw milk thing may have been, you know, may have been slightly overlooked or again, if we're looking so far back to Paleo times, okay, maybe we weren't cultivating these animals so that we could milk them. And that's' fine, but that doesn't mean that because this food, you know, came into play a little bit later that it might not still be potentially healthy. But I really think people need to understand that raw milk and milk from, you know, at the very least grass-fed cow, you know, who lived a good life. Even if, you know, I think raw milk is really…raw milk from grass-fed cows is the gold standard potentially, the A2 cow, I guess. I do tell people, look if you can't get it raw because it's illegal, then getting it from grass-fed cows at least, if you're lactose tolerant and you don't have issues with that, at least getting it from grass-fed cows is a much healthier form of the milk.
I don't know. I can't tell people, you know, I'm don't-I'm not [xxx 32:05]. I'm not doing deep research on milk, and I also don't know that I even think it matters that much because I think that we're potentially micromanaging some things that if somebody does not experience ill health and they're doing well, then I don't really think I need to question that. Yup. You know, the same way we know that again most people don't do well eating gluten, but maybe some people are okay with it. And maybe some people, you know, are okay with the fermented, sprouted form of grains or beans, and they're, you know, maybe a small minority, but to make a sweeping generalization that no one should ever eat dairy, I think that's too broad, too broad of a stroke to paint and I think I really would challenge people to look…RealMilk.com is the website to look for that stuff, seek out the raw milk if you want it to be a regular part of your diet at all.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I was on a little raw milk soapbox there, but [laughs].

LIZ WOLFE: Bear with you.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I don't even drink the stuff, but you know, I get a lot of questions about it, and you know, I get a lot of questions about it for kids, too…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Kids don't need dairy. You know, they definitely don't need dairy, but if you can get raw milk and they tolerate it well, it could be a good food, you know. I've seen some kids who are pretty robust, they're not getting infections when everyone else's kids are getting ear infections and you know, Mark McAfee from Organic Pastures Farm-he was…He did a talk at a local gym in San Francisco a couple of years ago, and I was super geeked out and went, and was like, yes, tell me everything, you know?

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And they had a couple of families…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, he was at the conference.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, they had some families with young kids and you know, the mom's telling how healthy her kids have been, and I'm like, yeah, I believe that. You know? I'm not going to assume that that's not true just because it's milk. They're eating good whole food there. So yeah, a lot of good stuff can come from it.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely. I think you've got a really good handle on what–I would like to share something with you, Diane. I feel like maybe after this we won't be able to be friends anymore. But I had-let me just decide how I want to say this. I had a piece of bread at the conference.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: You're fired. [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: I'm sorry! No, but really it was-they were talking a lot about fermented, sourdough bread.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh my God.

LIZ WOLFE: Fermented, how to make gluten free sourdough bread. D-d-d-duh.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh.

LIZ WOLFE: I'm a little bit skeptical of the whole, how you make it gluten free, but I mean, this is a thing where you've got the starter going for I don't know, ten years, and then you make it into bread for like ten more years.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Long process, creating a traditional food. And I put a crap ton of butter on it, and I had a couple of bites.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: There you go.

LIZ WOLFE: I actually didn't finish it. But I was fine. And it…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Good!

LIZ WOLFE: was really good that I was fine. And it was delicious and I appreciated it. I appreciated the work that went into it, and you know what? I was good with a couple bites, and then done. But there's really-

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I know!

LIZ WOLFE: there was something there, and it was cool.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. I know, I'm pretty sure Chris Masterjohn eats some sourdough that he makes regularly.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: With some regularity. I don't know, you know, regularly is a subjective term, but I'm pretty sure he's into that. I know…I don't know, like we know Chris Kresser makes some fermented buckwheat. You know, it's not gluten containing, but I don't think that…I don't think that everyone's going to be sick from two bites from bread, and I don't care what other people do, to be honest, like people always want to make food confessions to me. I think it's really funny.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I-I'm sure I've had gluten exposure in the last couple of years. I'm sure it's happened. I don't-I don't know how I feel about actually like making that conscious decision to grab something I know will have some kind of gluten content and eat it. Like it's a struggle for me. And the same way, like, you know, this might be…I've never smoked a cigarette ever. I just have never found it alluring after I learned, you know, kind of all the here's what's bad about it. I've seen some people in my family basically die from lung cancer, and no, it's not the same thing, but after learning what I've learned about gluten. After seeing people in my family suffer a lot of ill health from eating it, obviously, in a totally different way than once in a blue moon. And for myself, I experience some pretty major digestive distress when I eat it, but it's really hard. Like I think about it all the time, like oh, do I want to eat something with gluten again? And it's like, ahhh, I don't know. To me it's almost like do I want to smoke a cigarette? I mean, I've never done it, so I don't know how that feels, but I know what it feels like when I eat gluten and yeah, maybe I would have been curious, too, if like a few bites of the sourdough would have sent me running to the bathroom or not. I don't know.

LIZ WOLFE: I would never have gone to the store and bought bread, but..and you know, I don't make any bones about this act…irregardless, it's not a nutrient dense food compared to you know, other stuff that we could be eating. But it was interesting. It was interesting.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's all good and I won't disown you. No fear. {laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Not fired. Thank goodness. I told you on the air.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I definitely not a gatekeeper. Yeah, I didn't hear that beforehand, anyone listening.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I don't…I really don't care about that stuff. I mean, all good. I think it's a good experiment to run.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah,

DIANE SANFILIPPO: What other good stuff came out of the conference? Anything else?

LIZ WOLFE: You know, I think…oh, you know, the…a lot of people I think get their cod liver oil, me included, from Green Pasture and they have a new skin balm, and you know, I'm really into the whole kind of holistic self care, get rid of the crap type stuff. They have a new skin balm that's basically cod liver oil, coconut oil…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hmmm.

LIZ WOLFE: Shea butter, regular butter, so it's really like putting butter on your face, and it is amazing. I mean, I basically used it…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: What does it smell like?

LIZ WOLFE: It smells fine. They put like I believe some essential oils in there, so it smells kind of citrusy. It didn't smell like cod liver oil. And I tried, you know, trying different kinds of acne treatments. I had read like one study on, like, I think it was burn victims that topical cod liver oil actually helped speed wound healing, so I had tried to apply cod liver oil to my face, and if you have ever smelled fermented cod liver oil, it was literally like I went to the beach and put my face in a dead fish.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hmmm.

LIZ WOLFE: It was awful. But somehow this covered up the smell of it, and the balm is really amazing and while most of the time, if you've read my-any of my articles in Paleo Magazine, you probably know that I basically use coconut oil, baking soda, and vinegar for everything. I don't really buy a whole lot of personal care products, and this may be one that I'm going to start…I'm going to start buying because it just was…it felt so nourishing and technically, you know, it is something that I could make at home if I wanted to. But you know, who knows? Maybe I'll start ordering now…I definitely, definitely recommend it. I'll review it here pretty soon, but it was…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Cool.

LIZ WOLFE: Pretty phenomenal. And I know, we're kind of…I mean, obviously we're not super geeked out on the questions today, but I did want to kind of switch gears, if you're ready, and talk about a little movie I saw last night.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, sure.

LIZ WOLFE: If you're ready, I went and saw a screening of a delightful, somewhat quirky, very funny, replete with jokes about male genitalia, documentary about plastic.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hunh.

LIZ WOLFE: And you know, to complete my whole-my whole hippie training, you know, I'm now worried about plastics in my body and the environment. But it's called Bag It. The website is BagItMovie.com. And it was just delightful. I mean, it really was. It was fun to watch, it was light-hearted, but it still kind of gave you the facts about plastic in the environment, plastic in our bodies, kind of the chemicals in plastic, what it takes to, you know, make a plastic water bottle and things like that, but it was funny. You didn't leave feeling you're like a bad person, which is…I wrote a little review of Farmageddon, which was a documentary kind of talking about the injustices that have been levied against purveyors of raw milk, and that was just really kind of Doomsday oriented as much as I respect, you know, the effort behind it, and the issue itself. But this documentary Bag It was really fun. Really, really funny. And kind of self-deprecating, almost, so I really, really recommend it.
I also recommend that everybody try and reduce their consumption of disposable, one time use disposables. I think you and I have talked about this, Diane. Like go into Starbucks and everybody gets the damn to-go cup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: And there's really no excuse for that. There's also no excuse for, basically the American Chemical somebody or other who–we talked a lot about how say the ADA takes money from big corporations, vested interests, and kind of keeping processed foods in people's diets, labeling them healthy. The American Chemical-I don't know. It's not the American Chemical Association, but basically the giant organization representing the plastics industry…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmmm.

LIZ WOLFE: takes money from, for example, Monsanto, the GMO foods, you know, conglomerate.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yup.

LIZ WOLFE: And there are a lot of forces at work, kind of trying to maintain or increase our reliance on plastics as a country. Specifically plastic bags. Countries all over the world have outlawed the use of these plastic bags, with good reason. They're wasteful, they're disposable, you don't need them.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: The country I just came from did. The country of San Francisco.

LIZ WOLFE: [xxx 43:10] Oh yeah!

DIANE SANFILIPPO: No, San Francisco just operates on its own rules sometimes, and yeah, plastic bags are outlawed several years ago.

LIZ WOLFE: That rocks, yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think only compostable bags have been years. I think small, small businesses are allowed to use them, but the big guys like Safeway and even like Trader Joe's, those guys all have compostable, quote unquote plastic type bags, but yeah. All gone.

LIZ WOLFE: Well, apparently in Seattle, they tried to do the same thing and the American Chemical, you know, Whosit, sued. They spent something like 1.5 million dollars…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Wow.

LIZ WOLFE: to try and keep plastic bags in stores, and this tiny little movement that was just trying to kind of make people think a little bit before they just…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: you know, acted, maybe had something like 65 thousand dollars to fight this lawsuit. Apparently it was very important to the chemical association that people use plastic bags, and unfortunately they lost. I think it went to a vote and it was something like 49% to 51% or something like that, and it's just sad, you know. It's really sad.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: And you know, maybe I'm naïve and I don't know a lot about business, but I don't understand why some of these businesses don't start kind of blazing a trail toward the next thing.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: It's like, why don't you come up with something biodegradable?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Or something that's actually recyclable instead of downcyclable, you know?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Right.

LIZ WOLFE: A plastic bottle you can quote unquote recycle, but it only has one more use after that, and then whatever product comes from that ends up in the landfill, so…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, absolutely.

LIZ WOLFE: It defies logic.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's kind of funny that you're talking about plastic, just because it was just this morning before I even knew that we were going to be talking about this, I just sent out a link on the Facebook page and it tweeted about glass, like reusable glass containers for food. And they do have plastic lids that snap on, just because if you're traveling with them…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sort of dual purpose, you know, buying containers that can be reused for a very long period of time with you know, far less plastic involved. Mostly a glass container. And something that, you know, I don't really use a microwave. I didn't have one for the last 4 years or so in my apartment. I'm living at my parents' house now again, so you know, they have one, and I've probably used it like once in the last week to reheat something. I don't know if it really matters at all, but I'm just not that into it. But I know that if we're microwaving things in plastic, that's definitely getting more of the sort of plastic molecules into our food.

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: We don't really want to be eating that. So just getting people to not only buy something that will last longer. Buy something that isn't totally made of plastic, that when they do heat it up, you know, it's not getting plastic into their food, and just this whole idea of, you know. I guess we talk about the food choices we make in a Paleo diet as being very political, and I really do think that bringing your bag to the grocery store, bringing your cup to someplace like Starbucks or any coffee shop, using longer term reusable containers like, all of that is all part of, you know, us voting every single day with our dollars and our actions, and so, you know, I'm not a-I don't consider myself a very political person. I don't like to talk about politics. It's not something that I study or care to learn tons about. I just vote every day when I go to the co-op, you know, that takes me twenty minutes to drive to, even though I'm making that drive. I'm stocking up for, you know, a month on grass-fed meat from a local farm, that maybe isn't local in my exact town, but I'd rather make that effort and support that farm and what they're doing. And that's how I choose to vote, you know, everyday. Or whenever I'm eating. And you know, I think that it's really important and I think that you and I joke about being hippies, you know, or we're in this like, we're both kind of in New Jersey and in San Francisco, there's definitely this Yippie culture of everyone's got a lot of stuff, and they look nice, and they're well groomed, and they don't stink or all have dreadlocks, or they're not all hanging out on the street corner. It's not like that, but it's definitely like, people don't look at you like you're crazy if you're bringing your cup, if you have all your bags, if you're going to the Farmer's Market bringing all your bags with you. You know, you're just doing something that at least is, you know, cutting out part of this whole reliance on more plastic, more…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: you know, commercialized goods.

LIZ WOLFE: And it's easy.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And I think, you know, that's where people can do something. You know, people all get that

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: strung out on like what can I do, and you know, what you were saying, it would be great if these huge companies would make steps to make changes. And you know, I've seen stuff like this bottle uses 20% plastic than it used to. And it's like, okay, there's a step. You know, it's one thing, but at the end of the day, it's still up to that person to either choose to, you know, bring a bottle they refill from home, get a glass bottle, you know, etc. And people can do something about these things if they just kind of are a little more prepared and forward thinking about, you know, what they're going to be doing day in and day out.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely. Highly recommend it. Highly, highly recommend it.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Is it called Bag It? We'll put a link: BagItMovie?

LIZ WOLFE: It's called Bag It, and the link is BagItMovie.com. I'm telling you, I just-I have never admitted to having a crush on such a goofy, I mean, it almost looks like Doc Brown or a mad scientist or something, he's just too funny, and I got a total crush on the Bag It guy.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: And I dragged my husband to this screening, and he actually enjoyed it as well.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome.

LIZ WOLFE: So yeah, definitely support this movie, for sure. And it was free. So if you find a screening, it's probably going to be free. All the hippie clubs are showing it, so you should be able to find it.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I think…

LIZ WOLFE: Well, we talked for a long time.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's kind of fun, just kind of like get on here, yap for a bit. We definitely have, you know, we definitely have a bunch of questions queued up for our next podcast and certainly people can keep submitting questions. We're not at a shortage for questions, but any time you've got something you want to ask us about, and feel free to hop into iTunes and drop us a review. It definitely helps to-helps to put the podcast in front of a few more people. I think, I don't really know how the whole thing works with ratings on iTunes. I presume it might have something to do with, you know, downloads and something about reviews and ratings that you guys leave, but I don't have any idea. I mean, I think it would just be cool if we could kind of get even more people on board and listening and writing in some questions, and absolutely welcome more like beginner level questions. I think a lot of people write in with really specific questions on conditions that they have, and that's fine. You know, we're not doctors, we're not here to cure you. You know, we ask for a lot of you know, who you are and what's going on, and your whole situation does matter in terms of the way we want to help answer the question, but absolutely don't want people who are just trying to wade through all this information, figure out what's going on, don't want them to feel alienated whatsoever. And whether or not you eat Paleo or know what it is, we can definitely help people to understand a little bit more about all the choices that they're making, so yeah, maybe that'll be it until next time.

LIZ WOLFE: Stay tuned next week for more talk about bacon and why it may be good for you.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome.

LIZ WOLFE: We all already know that, but hey. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Cool. All right. We'll talk later.

LIZ WOLFE: All right, see ya.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Bye-bye.

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Cheers!
Diane & Liz