Topics:
1. What’s new for you from Diane & Liz [7:00]
2. This week in the Paleosphere: Country of origin label on meat [13:30]
3. Shout Out: Vanya Shivashankar and Coconuts and Kettlebells [20:27]
Listener Questions
4. Carrots and carbs: Dr. Perlmutter says restrict carrots for brain health? [24:41]
5. Infant formula alternatives: Breast milk, breastfeeding, and formula supplementation [31:53]
6. Magical mushroom supplements? [50:34]
Episode #194
Welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast with Diane Sanfilippo and Liz Wolfe. Diane is a certified nutrition consultant, and the New York Times bestselling author of Practical Paleo, The 21-Day Sugar Detox, and co-author of Mediterranean Paleo Cooking. Liz is a nutritional therapy practitioner, and the best-selling author of Eat the Yolks and The Purely Primal Skincare Guide. Together, Diane and Liz answer your questions, interview leading health and wellness experts, and share their take on modern paleo living with their friendly and balanced approach. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content within this podcast are intended as general information only, and are not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Topics:
1. What’s new for you from Diane & Liz [7:00]
2. This week in the Paleosphere: Country of origin label on meat [13:30]
3. Shout Out: Vanya Shivashankar and Coconuts and Kettlebells [20:27]
Listener Questions
4. Dr. Perlmutter says restrict carrots? [24:41]
5. Breast milk, breastfeeding, and formula supplementation [31:53]
6. Magical mushroom supplements [50:34]
Liz Wolfe: Hey friends! Liz here, with Diane, per usual. I guess not per usual, but it’s getting back to usual.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Which is good. How you doing girl?
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m great, how are you?
Liz Wolfe: Pretty good. Pretty darn good.
Diane Sanfilippo: Super. Thanks for asking! {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Super, thanks for asking! You know what I had forgotten about and had just remembered? The bend and snap.
Diane Sanfilippo: Oh yeah. {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: The bend and snap! I had totally forgotten about it.
Diane Sanfilippo: What made you think of it just now? Something on Instagram?
Liz Wolfe: I don’t know. Is that weird? Do you not just think in movie quotes and Legally Blonde references?
Diane Sanfilippo: Sometimes I do. Sometimes. More Clueless and Mean Girls. I definitely think in Mean Girls quotes, like pretty much all day long.
Liz Wolfe: Well, we all know that.
Diane Sanfilippo: That vest was disgusting.
Liz Wolfe: I kind of a little bit more towards the Jerk, things like that. Anytime somebody hands me something that I want, whatever it is, let’s say it’s a macaroon, I’ll say, I can use macaroons!
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Yeah, nope. Don’t know.
Liz Wolfe: Nothing, nothing at all? Here’s a hashtag. Next time you’re watching something or you think of a quote or something like that from your favorite movie, bonus points if it’s the Jerk or the Princess Bride or Mean Girls or something amazing like that, #BBPodcast and tweet us or Instagram us something along those lines, because I want to know what’s in people’s heads all day long?
Diane Sanfilippo: And what makes them think of us when they watch it? That’s kind of what I want to know.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: Alright, so if you’re new listening to this podcast, we’ve gone through. This has been, I don’t know, are we at the 4 year mark?
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: So I think every podcast out there goes through an evolution. Pun intended. And you start out a little rough maybe, or maybe not. There are lots of folks out there were are super polished out of the gate. That was not us. I’m not sure that we’re super polished now {laughs}.
Liz Wolfe: Nuh-huh.
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s just not our style to be super polished.
Liz Wolfe: I can’t be something I’m not.
Diane Sanfilippo: No. I can work pretty hard on being as polished as possible when it comes to a printed book. Obviously when you write, it’s very well edited, or at least it seems that way.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: And when I put together photographs of food, and all that stuff, very polished. However, when you and I like to talk about nutrition, or we shoot the breeze about any of this stuff, we just have a more casual outlook and a more casual sort of approach and that kind of comes from, our first interactions were through the podcast, and then also teaching seminars to people in person. I just think we naturally don’t like to be super stuffy and rigid.
And we’re not scripted, so here’s a little side note for people. We’ve had, over time, lots of notes about the way we’re going to answer questions, but we don’t script ourselves because we’re both into the more natural approach when it comes to everything and we want to give you guys the advice from our gut. We have notes on what we want to say, but this is kind of a free form, more casual podcast, and one of the things we like to do is just share things that are a little bit more personal and get to know our listeners, because as we know being podcast fans ourselves, we like that little bit of a connection.
So I just wanted to say hello to any of our new listeners out there and welcome you to the show, and also encourage you to head back to the archives. We only recently did one sort of revived episode, and that was episode number 8, but people keep asking me, how should I listen, I just found your podcast, and I’m new. I always recommend listen to the newest one, and then go back. So you’re doing a 190-something, and then a number, and back, and 2, and back, and 3, and kind of get a feel for what’s going on.
Because we also, Liz you know, we get a lot of the same questions. And some of them have different nuances, which is cool, and its fun for us to reanswer those. But a lot of them we don’t pull from new question submissions because we have answered them many times in the past. So I just wanted to remind everyone to go ahead and check those out. Our answers pretty much hold true, and when we do bring things into new episodes, we like to readdress them if it’s something we have a new take on it. So I definitely recommend looking through there.
You can always hit BalancedBites.com in the top right corner on the podcast link, there’s an archive. There are actually 2 different archives; one is by episode, and one is by topic. So if there’s a certain topic that you’re interested in, for example women’s health and hormones or adrenal fatigue or fat loss, or weight gain or weight loss, whatever it may be, there’s a whole archive there by topic. So I definitely want to encourage you and welcome you to check that out. So there’s that. Just some things on my mind from the internet this week.
Liz Wolfe: You really shoot from the hip well.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: I’ve always said that. You’re great with the extemporaneous speaking.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I’m pretty sure when you first said that word to me, I was like, I don’t know what that means, but I hope it’s not an insult. {laughing}
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} No, not an insult. Not at all. So, ok yeah. Good. What she said, everybody.
Diane Sanfilippo: We’d like to thank Tin Star Foods Ghee for being a proud sponsor of the Balanced Bites podcast. For those of you who aren’t sure what ghee is, it’s clarified butter. So if you’re sensitive to dairy proteins, it’s a really good option. For people who are highly, highly allergic, it maybe for you, it maybe not. I know that Tin Star is certified as casein free as well as lactose free, batches are tested every few months so if you’re very sensitive to that, or you’re on an autoimmune protocol, this could be a great option for you. And if you’re looking for a fantastic cooking fat, ghee is a perfect choice. It has a very high smoke point, and it tastes great with just about any type of food
Tin Star Ghee is what I reach for most when I’m cooking in my own kitchen, and if you’re looking for an alternative to something like coconut oil or other animal fats, definitely check it out. As a special offer for our listeners, you can save 15% off any ghee in your order from http://www.primalfoodpantry.com/ using code BALANCEDBITES, so check them out. http://www.primalfoodpantry.com/ and grab your Tin Star Foods Ghee.
1. What’s new for you from Diane & Liz [7:00]
Liz Wolfe: So, hey. What are your updates? I totally care about them, so please tell me what your updates are.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Ok. So a couple of things. One, which I think is really cool, and is an update regarding one of our awesome sponsors. Tin Star Foods, Tin Star Ghee, which you guys all know is our favorite. Not only are they certified as casein free and lactose free, Hima, the owner, gets batches tested, like a random batch every couple of months will get tested for these things, so those who are very sensitive to dairy, myself included, as any of you on Instagram following me know. I posted a picture just last week of what happens to my face when I eat dairy.
But I just wanted to let you guys know that she does that testing, but also this is really what I wanted to update everyone on. For the whole month of June, she’s giving $0.75 cents of every order to K9 Angels Rescue in Houston. I talked about that last week, we’re big fans of K9 Angels rescue, April on my team, who runs 21-Day Sugar Detox social media, is a foster mommy to lots of puppies over there, and you guys have probably seen me sharing pictures of different puppies. My heart breaks every time because I want to adopt all of them, and I cannot.
And Liz did actually adopt a puppy from there last year when we were in Houston for an event. So I just wanted to let you guys know that if you’ve been thinking about grabbing that ghee and trying it out, definitely do that. It’s a great time to do it, because part of your purchase will go right to K9 Angels. So there’s that.
And a couple of other things really quickly. One is that for the 21-Day Sugar Detox, if you were in the Facebook group that we had a while ago and you loved interacting with people while doing the program, we have a new group for it. We were doing the monthly before, but that was just too much for my team to manage every month, you know, close out the old, open the new, and all of that. So what we have now is one main group for the 21-Day Sugar Detox community, and you’re welcome to pop into that, ask to join, we’ll approve you no matter what. We don’t have a screening process for that, beyond that you’re not a bot and a spammer, which every now and then we find random weird accounts.
But you can hop in there, you’re welcome to come and go as you please. So if you’re doing the program you can jump in and then if it’s something you don’t want to be a part of after your program, you’re welcome to leave. Or you can stay as sort of an alumni and help other people, and see recipes that are shared, tips and tricks and all that good stuff. So just search on Facebook for that.
And the very last thing, I just wanted to remind everyone that the Build a Badass Business podcast, which is my other show, just by myself. Which I will drag Liz on to do an interview at some point in time. But number 9, episode number 9 is my talk from PaleoFx. There were a lot of you who were wishing you could be at PaleoFx in Austin. It’s a great event every year, and I was talking about business this year, and marketing, because I get a lot of questions about that and it’s something that I actually have a very long history and a lot of experience in, even before I went into this whole paleo thing. So I just wanted to let you guys know that episode number 9 was my talk from PaleoFx, that’s free over on iTunes as well, and you can check that out. So there you go.
Liz Wolfe: Nice.
Diane Sanfilippo: What’s new with you my friend?
Liz Wolfe: Well, you know, same old same old. Farm, baby, husband, not sleeping. I have the cutest baby in the freaking world.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: She’s so cute.
Diane Sanfilippo: They all say that.
Liz Wolfe: But you have seen her.
Diane Sanfilippo: She is pretty cute.
Liz Wolfe: She’s pretty dang cute. Baby Making and Beyond is chugging along. We have a pretty big email list of folks that want to hear when it’s ready to go. I think what we might do is when it’s first done, open it up to that first wave of people that are on the email list versus doing a big public, wohoo it’s ready! Because I think it would be probably best for us to control the numbers, at least at first, while we get to know what questions people have as they get into the content, and stuff like that. So just make sure that you sign up for the email list, because it will definitely be offered to those folks first. So BabyMakingandBeyond.com, just enter your email and we’ll email you when it’s ready to go.
What else? I don’t know. I’m sure there’s lots of stuff going on, I can’t remember it. Like the spontaneously, I need to start keeping a little note in my smart phone when I think of things that I should be talking about.
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s new mommy brain.
Liz Wolfe: It is, but I’m not expecting it to come back.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: I’m really not. And that’s fine. I think maybe the whole mommy brain thing is more like we do too much anyway; we push ourselves to capacity as it is, and then you throw the kid on top of things, and it’s like, what do you expect? You’re doing way too much anyway and now you added the one thing that maybe you didn’t realize how much of an impact and how much work it was going to be.
Diane Sanfilippo: And takes so much priority.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah!
Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, my mom is 67, and still my stuff is at the top of her list.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s like, mom, it’s ok, I got it. {laughs} you cannot worry about that now it will be ok.
Liz Wolfe: I will never not worry about this tiny person. Never. I mean, it really is actually kind of crazy. But it’s fun, it’s really fun. What’s funny about it though is I’ll have 2 days where she’s napping great, and I get a ton of work done, and I’m like, I can rock this. I can do this full time work, full time mom get things done, hit my benchmarks and what not. I might even work in a workout here later. And then the next day it’s like 3 weeks straight of me not one single time having both hands available at the same time. So, it’s humbling to say the least.
Diane Sanfilippo: It sounds pretty much impossible, and I am very impressed by you doing this. And I’m proud of you. I don’t know if that makes sense.
Liz Wolfe: Aww, jeeze. Thanks friend.
Diane Sanfilippo: I think it’s, for as much stuff as we both do work wise, and I’m quick to do crazy amounts of work and just loving it and am passionate about it, but I totally don’t think I could handle having a kid. So I’m totally impressed by it. So rock on.
Liz Wolfe: Thanks. That kind of sounds like you think I’m handling this in one way or another, which I don’t know that I am {laughs}.
Diane Sanfilippo: People think I’m handling my work in one way or another {laughs} I’m like, you don’t really know.
Liz Wolfe: I’m just surviving. That’s all it is.
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m kidding. We’re getting by. We’re getting by.
2. This week in the Paleosphere: Country of origin label on meat [13:30]
Liz Wolfe: Alright, so I have a little tidbit for this week in the real food paleosphere. Have you heard, Diane, about chicka de China de Chinese chicken?
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} You stole my song.
Liz Wolfe: Oh shoot, did you do that earlier?
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I totally earwormed you.
Liz Wolfe: You did that off the air, I was wondering how that got in my brain. Everybody, hat tip Diane.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} I don’t think you have to hat tip me if I’m here.
Liz Wolfe: That was completely hers and I stole it because I literally forgot something that happened 10 minutes ago.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s awesome.
Liz Wolfe: Wow. Alright, so I’m thinking that this is going to be the next frontier. We’ve been talking about whether or not GMO foods should be labeled, and how important that is to people who are not important, depending on who you are. But now this article in the Washington Post is talking about the House considering a repeal of meat labeling that would specify what country of origin the meat that is sold in grocery stores to us would come from.
Diane Sanfilippo: Hmm.
Liz Wolfe: So, basically, there are people that argue that labeling meat that comes from, I think specifically they mentioned Mexico, maybe they mentioned one other place. I don’t have it open right now. But there are a few countries that if folks knew they were buying meat that was shipped in from those countries, that they’d be less likely to buy them. So are we thinking we want to know the country that our meat comes from, or are we thinking that that is not important at all?
I would personally love that information. I think transparency is really important. I think a lot of people don’t realize that when they buy grass-fed beef, like from Trader Joe’s, it’s actually coming in from Australia.
Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.
Liz Wolfe: I don’t think that’s a big deal. The climate happens to be good there.
Diane Sanfilippo: I think it’s labeled currently. Isn’t it?
Liz Wolfe: Is it? I’ve never noticed.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I think it has to be labeled currently.
Liz Wolfe: Oh yeah, because they’re repealing it. So it would have to already be labeled.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I think most food products are labeled. And actually, garments all have to be labeled where they come from, as well, and I think it’s strange, because I feel like even though we have our own food and drug laws, I feel like there’s just something that will be lost in translation between other country’s laws and what happens when food comes here. And at the end of the day, this really just goes back to being the case for buying locally and not really worrying as much about that because we are buying something that we’re getting from a local farmer.
I think what will end up happening is, if they take these labels off and you can’t see product of New Zealand, or whatever the country of origin was by law, then the more local producers will continue to include that on their label.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: So, the law will be that they don’t have to, but anybody who wants to tell people, this is a product of the United States, or even what state it’s from, or what have you, that will continue to happen. You know what I mean?
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s kind of like those who are doing something that they presume people want, just like pork products will say no antibiotics or whatever the case may be, and you can’t do it. It’s not legal anyway to use antibiotics in pork products or feed.
Liz Wolfe: Or hormones actually.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, hormones. So it’s like, hormone free. It’s like, that’s not legal anyway, but they put it on there because they think people will want to know that. And same thing with meats made in this country and any other food products. I guess this was mainly on meat? Meat labeling?
Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I believe so. So no longer having to let us know where the meat comes from. I’d like to know.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I’d like to know.
Liz Wolfe: And you know what another thing is? I’m interested as to where my meat was processed.
Diane Sanfilippo: Mmm.
Liz Wolfe: Because we were talking, I think a while back, about how I guess it’s now legal for chicken to be processed in China and then sent back?
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m shaking my head. It’s so crazy.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah. So what’s so crazy too, if you think about this, versus buying locally when you can. So, local meat it’s basically my farmer from 10 miles down the road sends it to the butcher in Holden 10 miles down the other road, and then I pick up my meat at the butcher in Holden. Right? It’s this tiny little triangulation of farmer to butcher to me, and when you think about the chicken from, say, Tyson or Perdue, being shipped to China for processing, and then shipped back, that is weeks and maybe even months before it actually gets to you on the shelf. So when you’re talking about fresh food, that’s, I mean, come on. That doesn’t sound so good to me.
Diane Sanfilippo: This type of processing and handling, you know when it comes to a logical way to consider what we’re purchasing and eating, I can see this type of processing and this problem building a very strong case for vegetarianism.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: Even though, obviously that’s not something that we believe in or promote for human optimal nutrition; when it comes to political choice or spending your dollars to actually vote with them on food, that’s just one of those things where I just can’t really get behind that. And of course, we’re all stuck in situations where, I’m traveling pretty often, and I don’t know where everything I’m eating comes from on a lot of the trips that I take, you know. I can’t manage that. But we’re really talking about what we’re doing at home and I definitely don’t want to scare anyone into feeling like they have to be a paleo perfectionist, and if what you can get by with is not pastured chicken because it is so expensive sometimes, and that’s kind of the issue, too. The better quality, locally raised meat ends up being 2-3 times the process of some of this other stuff. And that’s where it’s really screwed up, because what they’re doing to process those chickens, sending them to China, bringing them back, imagine how much cost that adds to the production.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm. Billions of chickens a year, Tyson produces.
Diane Sanfilippo: And when you imagine that… Well that’s what I’m saying, then think about how cheaply they produce the chicken in the first place, you know what I mean? If that can be a part of their process and still keep the chicken price that low. This is just basic economics, and the demand that they have for chicken is so, so high. It’s like the darling protein of American grocery stores.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: Anyway, I did listen to a really interesting podcast. America’s Test Kitchen was talking about the evolution of chicken in terms of what we eat, and I think that’s an interesting one to listen to if anyone is curious about that. Because it wasn’t always the mainstay that it is now in our kitchens. So there’s that.
3. Shout Out: Vanya Shivashankar and Coconuts and Kettlebells [20:27]
Liz Wolfe: Alright, so I have 2 shout outs today.
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok.
Liz Wolfe: First shout out is to, I’m going to butcher this, this is not paleo related, but Vanya Shivashankar. I’m sure I said that wrong, because I was actually watching the Scripps National Spelling Bee on mute with closed captioning which is hilarious seeing whoever was trying to close caption live television for a national spelling bee.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}
Liz Wolfe: It was pretty funny.
Diane Sanfilippo: They better spell those words right.
Liz Wolfe: Exactly! So Vanya is actually from Olathe, Kansas. Which is just within minutes of where I grew up and went to school, it’s not too far from me now. It’s pretty cool to see her finally win. She’s a veteran of that competition. I myself am a bit of a spelling junkie, I did win the 5th and 6th grade spelling bees at North Creek Elementary school.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} That’s amazing.
Liz Wolfe: So, so, so, so. Good job, Vanya! She’s a co-champion, it’s like the first time they had co-champions in many, many years. So good job. I’m sure she listens to our podcast.
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m sure she does.
Liz Wolfe: And, my next shout out and I may have done this before, so forgive me if I said it before but I’m saying it again, because she’s still doing a great job. The Facebook page Coconuts and Kettlebells, I love it. I don’t know a whole lot about the gal behind the page. Maybe I’ve met her, maybe I haven’t. It’s terrible that I don’t remember, but again, I don’t even know what day it is so she’s going to have to forgive me. The Coconuts and Kettlebells Facebook page I follow it, I really enjoy everything she puts up there. She almost puts up little blog posts within Facebook, so you just kind of click and enjoy what she’s got to say. Scroll through, check it out. She talks about training, she talks about food, she talks about natural skin care, so definitely.
Diane Sanfilippo: I think she cohosts the podcast over with Stephani Ruper, I think the two of them have a podcast.
Liz Wolfe: Nice.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: I should know that, because Stephani’s my buddy. I don’t know, I’ve been gone for like a year.
Diane Sanfilippo: I think I also shared, gosh I wish I could think of her first name too, which is one of the reasons why at some point last year I was like, I’m going to make my page my name. Because I feel like people just want to call me Balanced Bites. {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: But she had a really cool post on body image and not having a six pack and all that, and I was like, yes! You go Glen Coco! I remember sharing that. Awesome.
Liz Wolfe: Very good.
Diane Sanfilippo: Can I make a really quick shout out to my parents for doing once a week one on one training at a Crossfit gym, because they’re the cutest thing ever?
Liz Wolfe: Well obviously. Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I’ve been posting videos of them from my coach/their coach and trainer over on Instagram and Facebook, and people are just going nuts watching my dad do burpees in his Lululemon three-quarter pants and hipster glasses. It’s so adorable, I want to punch things, it’s so cute. {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: That’s what you do when you see something cute, you punch things?
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s cute aggression, haven’t you heard? {laughing}
Liz Wolfe: You know what, yes I have actually. I think I know the feeling. I do. Noel, that’s her name.
Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, yes. There we go.
Liz Wolfe: I did know that. I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Thank you for the endless education and information while I’m sitting there with a baby napping on my chest and I can’t move, because if I do she’ll wake up. I can only move my thumb.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: You know this.
Diane Sanfilippo: I do.
Liz Wolfe: We’d like to thank Vital Choice for supporting our podcast today, and we encourage you to visit their online store at vitalchoice.com. You’ll find an amazing array of some of the world’s best seafood, including wild Alaskan salmon, halibut, tuna and cod, as well as sustainably harvested shellfish. These foods are not only delicious, but vital choices for your health. You’ll also find grass-fed organic Wagyu beef, live fermented foods to promote gut health, wild organic blueberries, and dark organic chocolates. Eat better, think better, and feel better with deeply nourishing foods from Vital Choice. They’re offering our listeners 15% off any order using code BALANCEDBITES. Remember that orders of $99 or more ship free.
4. Dr. Perlmutter says restrict carrots? [24:41]
Liz Wolfe: Alright, ready for questions?
Diane Sanfilippo: Questions. Yes, yes.
Liz Wolfe: Questions! Alright, first one. Limiting carrots for brain health. Mallory says, “Hi Diane and Liz. I love how y’all live up to your name and keep things balanced and non-dogmatic on the show.” Well, balanced is to be debated, huh? “So, I’m guessing you’ll have something balanced to say about my question. I was recently thumbing through Dr. Perlmutter’s new book, Brain Maker, which is next on my paleo related reading list. I noted in his list of in moderation foods, meaning no more than once per day, and ideally just a few times per week, that carrots are included. Carrots, really? I mean yes, carrots are higher in carbs than lettuce, for example. But who is actually going to overeat and spike their blood sugar with carrots? It just seems a bit dogmatic to me. In his meal plans also he has barely any carbs. Dinner for example is some type of meat or fish with vegetables. I recently finished reading the Adrenal Reset Diet by Dr. Christianson, and he seems to have a totally different view than Dr. Perlmutter. Good carbs are a healthy part of one’s diet. I’m not out to get Dr. P, but I would like to see what your view on his food recommendations are. I can see how some people might take his advice too dogmatically, which can wind up being unhealthy.”
“Carrots, he called me carrots!” What’s that from? Do you know where that’s from?
Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t know.
Liz Wolfe: Have you heard it?
Diane Sanfilippo: I’m the worst. No.
Liz Wolfe: It’s from Anne of Green Gables, it’s ok.
Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my goodness.
Liz Wolfe: Gilbert Blythe, he called me carrots! I think Gilbert Blythe called her carrots. Alright, anyway.
Diane Sanfilippo: Somebody will get that. One person will get that. #BBPodcasts and post something telling Liz that you got her reference.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, so I have a couple of thoughts about this. One, specifically related to the content of the book, and two just kind of in general. So, as related to the book, Brain Maker which I have not read but I can make an educated guess on the approach made in the book based on what Mallory is telling us here that Dr. Perlmutter is obviously suggesting a ketogenic approach for brain health, and that’s something that he advocates. Many people advocate it. His market generally, for the information he’s trying to get out there, is being sent to the general public. It’s not a paleo brain health book, it’s really a mainstream, let’s get people shifting what they’re eating type of book.
So, while I’m with you, I think that’s probably a bit extreme to tell people, especially who are mainstream, that too many carrots is not a good idea. I mean, I definitely don’t think that’s necessary, but I wouldn’t undermine or devalue his work and his experience as a clinician and being able to guide people through a nutritional approach for brain health, I just don’t think that’s my place. I’m not a medical doctor, and it’s totally his prerogative to use that as his recommendation.
That being said, yeah, a very, very low carb, zero carb or under 30 grams being absolutely necessary for ideal brain health probably not for most people, and especially not for people who are eating paleo who are avoiding refined, processed foods, not eating tons of sugar, who are getting in good amounts of fatty cold water fish to get their omega-3s, and lots of other essential nutrients for brain health like choline from egg yolks and maybe liver.
So that’s kind of my first take on that whole, is the carrot recommendation going too far. I mean, if he’s going to help somebody make a shift with his recommendation, and sometimes there are rules even within the 21-Day Sugar Detox that people don’t really understand and they seem arbitrary, but based on my experience, and what I want to set people up with, this works really well and if you don’t want to do it you don’t have to do it. And so there are foods that have lower sugar in total than a green apple, or a green tipped banana, or a grapefruit that are included on my program. Some berries have a lot less sugar. But that’s not really everything about my program. So who knows, maybe there’s some reason why he’s saying, ok, people are doing this with carrots, and this is causing problems so I just don’t want them to have them. You’d really have to read the full book, and then ask Dr. Perlmutter about that.
A second thing is, she goes into Dr. Alan Christianson’s book on Adrenal Reset, and you’re going to drive yourself crazy reading every single book that comes out for every single potential problem that people have, because everybody will have conflicting advice. What is recommended for adrenal fatigue is not going to be the same thing as what’s recommended for brain health, and of course, there will always be an intersection of people for example who have a concern about their brain health and they also happen to have adrenal fatigue. And that’s for each individual person to kind of navigate, either on their own or with their own practitioner.
But even if you read my book, you read Liz’s book, you read Robb Wolf, you read Mark Sisson, there are going to be differences in opinion from everybody in small ways, even though we all have the same overarching view of things, we may all have the same overarching group of, you know, these are what we consider optimal foods in general, how much of each of them you eat may vary. Or how much we think that different things are important may vary, but I think you’re just going to make yourself crazy if you’re trying to align everybody’s views, because it will just never happen.
Even Robb Wolf and Mark Sisson just; I feel like lately they’re much more aligned than they were in the past, but even someone like Mark recently has gone pretty far against alcohol as an everyday thing, and I know lots of people who read lots of studies and are really interested in the science on things like health benefits of red wine. Mark is like, well, my experience for myself was that it wasn’t really helping me sleep well. And so, everyone is going to have a difference in opinion. I just think you have to shift through it and use the squishy thing in your head to come up with what you think is the best for you, and then if you’re recommending somebody read a book because you think it can help them, pick the one that you think is the most balanced and that will help them the most for their own health.
If you need to recommend Brain Maker to somebody for brain health, and you think the carrot thing is crazy, just let it go. If they want to do everything that this other person says, let it go, let them do it, and in a year they’ll probably realize the carrots are not causing the problem. Do you know what I mean? That’s kind of where we always come back to with our recommendations. It’s like, we’re going to give you what we think, but you have to use your own brain and your own set of logic and run it by yourself and what makes sense to you, because I can’t make those choices for you. Just give you the information and let you make the choices.
5. Breast milk, breastfeeding, and formula supplementation [31:53]
Liz Wolfe: Alrighty. This question is from Christy. Breast milk is best, but…? Alright, so Christy says, “I’m asking for a friend. What would you recommend to use as a supplement in the case you were unable to breast feed, and you couldn’t get enough donor milk to be enough. I’ve read about goat’s milk, and I’ve read about homemade formulas. I absolutely do not want to subject the baby to the formulas available now, never mind the cost, but the GMOs and the pesticides, and just looking at the ingredients; no. Her last child was 10 years ago, and she was unsuccessful at breast feeding then. She’s changed a lot in that time, and is more concerned about eating and what to feed the baby, so she really doesn’t want to do formula at all. But there is still the fear that once she goes back to work, she’s not going to be able to pump enough, and there may be a need for supplementation for the first year at least. What are your thoughts and recommendations? We have access to grass-fed cow’s milk. I’d have to do some research for goat’s milk. My friend does not eat paleo.”
Alright, so for this question I’m going to kind of back out, and open it up because I think there are a couple of things we could talk about here, some of which apply directly to the question and to Christy’s friend, and some of which just are questions that are lingering on the periphery of this topic, which is kind of like formula, breast feeding, etc., etc. So I do want to say that there are a lot of ways, first of all, let’s just talk about breast feeding. If we’re talking about someone who is willing to do work to make something happen, versus just saying I want a quick fix for if I need to supplement. You know what I’m saying? So are you willing to do a bunch of things to make breast feeding and pumping work and to get plenty from that? Let’s assume that and we’ll go there first.
So, the things that you really need to thing about when it comes to breast feeding and to milk supply and all of that is starting from the very, very beginning. As soon as that baby is born, having that baby skin to skin with you, rooming in with the baby, not sending it to the nursery. I think most hospitals are supportive of rooming in. Sadly there aren’t a whole lot of hospitals that have been able to earn the breastfeeding friendly designation, because that’s very not formula friendly, and the formula companies don’t like that. I think hospitals actually basically have to lose quite a bit of money to become breastfeeding friendly. Luckily, nurses and doctors are often independently breastfeeding friendly.
So one of the most important things you can do once the baby is born is to do skin to skin. Even if you have to have a C-section, you can have that baby as close to you as possible. They can bring it around the curtain and put it to your chest there because that’s what’s going to stimulate the hormones that are going to stimulate your milk supply. So that’s huge, number one. So you start there.
Also, the next thing is even if you think things are going well at the hospital, or at home, or wherever it is that you give birth, the birth center, talk to a lactation consultant, and follow up with that lactation consultant. They really try to impress upon you at the hospital to follow-up with breastfeeding support groups and lactation consultants, but a lot of times, I know the way I felt was, hey I’m getting the hang of this, I’m good to go and I’m not going to show up to these breastfeeding support groups. And then when things get dicey, it gets a little difficult. So definitely see a lactation consultant; one that does home visits is even better. I actually had a home visit from a Kansas City area lactation consultant who was amazing, so if you’re in Kansas City look up Liz Levy. She was awesome. Really, really helped us.
Another thing I want folks to do from the very beginning is check for tongue tie and lip tie. Because that can really impact your supply, it can impact your success breastfeeding, and that can affect your ability to pump and your supply down the line. So from the beginning, when you’re breastfeeding on maternity leave, even if you’re going to have to go back to work and pump, definitely check for that tongue tie and that lip tie. Look for a pediatric laser dentist that can revise tongue and lip ties; just start to do some research on that.
There’s a ton of information on tongue and lip ties floating around the internet now. It seems like an incredibly widespread problem. I think probably it’s a result of several generations of bad food and worse nutrition, lifestyle, formula feeding, and all of that stuff that I think our society has fallen victim to. Not to suggest that formula feeding is making a victim of us. I was formula fed, it’s ok. But I think there’s a reality that some nutritional deficiencies and some lifestyle issues have impacted several generations now are starting to manifest in more midline defects, which is what a tongue tie or a lip tie issue is. It’s a midline defect. So check for that.
There’s a doctor in Portland who is one of the best tongue tie/lip tie revision docs out there; Dr. Ghaheri I think that’s how it’s spelled. But you can go to his website and learn a ton about tongue tie, lip tie, revision, post revision exercises and things like that. He is extremely helpful. He’s very responsive on Twitter, so if you have a question or a concern that you can put into a tweet, you can just tweet him. I’ve done that several times and he was helpful to me.
I found somebody in Kansas City who did our revision, he was wonderful, Dr. Prater. There’s also someone in Kansas City, there’s someone in St. Louis; you want to make sure that you end up with a really capable practitioner who is well reviewed. There are tongue tie support groups that you can join to find out a little bit more about that, though I would probably caution folks not to get too far down the support group rabbit hole too quickly, because you really do see a lot of people in there that are just really, really desperate coming from all different walks of life. So it can get a little intimidating. Just start out on that journey, figure out if you’ve got a tongue tie or not, and take your little one to a pediatric laser dentist if you can.
So those are kind of the different ways to support a really robust supply and healthy breastfeeding from the very beginning that will help you down the line. Hopefully bank a ton of milk and be able to pump exclusively if needed. You can do the basic galactagogue, like the breast milk health mom teas and tinctures, stuff like that. That’s great. Another thing you can do to make sure breastfeeding is going well is to see an osteopath, do some craniosacral therapy. We take our little one into the city just about once a week to do craniosacral therapy. They can do it while the baby is breastfeeding, and really help with the latch, and that’s been really amazing for us too, so that’s another thing to look into.
Now, when it comes to formula. I totally am with Christy; there really is no great premade formula. There is soybean oil and soy lecithin in all of them. Even the Honest Company, which I really like the work they’re doing, I think they’re doing a good job on a large scale. Their formula has all the usual suspects. Nature’s, let me thing. A couple of formulas, I think Similac has a completely non GMO formula, but it’s still full of all kinds of crazy oils and stuff like that. So that’s no good. Earth’s Best organic, Nature’s One baby’s only organic, those are kind of better than some of the other formula alternatives, but they’re still full of some slightly weird stuff. I don’t know, I think somebody out there could make a killing trying to overhaul a conventional formula to make it more real food friendly; I would totally invest in that company.
But, there are these, she’s talking about I think the Weston A. Price homemade formula recipe, which is great. Let’s see, what does she say about that, I’m way down the rabbit hole now. So, yes homemade formulas. The Weston A. Price foundation has a cow’s milk based formula, a goat’s milk based formula with modifications, a liver based formula, and all of those are great. People get really fearful about the idea of homemaking stuff. It doesn’t bother me, I think it’s perfectly safe, so I would certainly do it. I think it’s good to go. You can actually buy a kit for making the homemade formula from Radiant Life catalogue, I think it’s radiantlifecatalog.com. There may be a few other places that enable you to do that, but you can buy the whole kit and caboodle, all the stuff you would need to make homemade formula from there. And yeah, I would totally do that if I needed to.
But, if I really had to give your friend advice, Christy, it would be to do everything you can to get that good supply going and establish breastfeeding and whatnot so that you can pump all you need when it’s time to go back to work.
Diane Sanfilippo: There was one I remember hearing about, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it, that was actually not made in the United States, and.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah, there are a couple.
Diane Sanfilippo: I can’t remember, I mean it was a couple of years ago somebody was asking me and I did a bunch of research on it, and there were some that were better. They were definitely pretty cost prohibitive.
Liz Wolfe: They start with an H, and I actually deleted them from my list of possibilities, because I don’t think there are any authorized resellers in the United States.
Diane Sanfilippo: Mmm.
Liz Wolfe: So it’s kind of like, where are you getting it from, who’s reselling it.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.
Liz Wolfe: But, oh you know what I was going to say. It’s like Holla, it starts with an H, there’s a couple and they’re German made. And I know she’s controversial, but the Food Babe actually has a pretty good post on her website about just what’s in the different formulas, where they’re made and who the parent companies are.
Diane Sanfilippo: She didn’t actually write the post.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: She didn’t write the post. I just looked at that one too, recently, and it’s somebody else who wrote it. Just if anyone is worried that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about {laughs} when it comes to baby formula.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: It’s this other woman who was a former director of farm and food policy at the Cornucopia Institute who wrote the article.
Liz Wolfe: That’s a good one, so look that up. It kind of descends into some kind of funky territory to me towards the end, there, just kind of what she’s talking about when she’s covering, but the discussion of the parent companies of the different formulas and things like that, that was really interesting to me and I think it probably would be to any discerning real foodie, so maybe we can link that post, too.
Diane Sanfilippo: The real issue, and this isn’t about guilt or making anybody feel bad, because we also know that there are plenty of mom’s who have other prohibitive reasons why they either can’t breastfeed or whatever the case may be.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: Or don’t have access to a milk bank, or something of that nature is that unfortunately, it’s such a huge industry. It’s like, let’s say maybe next in line to the vegetable oil industry, and they’re cozied up to each other, putting vegetable oils into the formula. It’s just such a huge business, and it’s so unfortunate that it’s infants who are consuming this stuff that’s just made to be this huge business, and then it’s probably super political and the idea of even getting organic formula’s approved, and then if somebody tried to do something progressive, I know Pete, what the heck is his last name, the Australian paleo chef guy, Pete Evans.
Liz Wolfe: Evans, yeah.
Diane Sanfilippo: He was totally blasted for doing anything related to infant nutrition, or trying to with a new book, and it’s just, I don’t really think it’s just rooted in people being unsure about the health effects of real food on an infant; I think it’s just a ton of lobbying and a ton of political and financial weight thrown around when it comes to the formula industry, because of big food, because of big agriculture and all of that. So that’s unfortunately the side of it that becomes, every person has to make that decision about what’s the lesser of the evils if you’re not going to do something that’s homemade.
Because I honestly do think that if you’re in the situation where you can’t breastfeed or get breast milk, that’s something that I feel like finding a way to make it from some kind of recipe, because you can make a lot of it, right, and freeze it? Nothing get’s damaged when it’s frozen. It doesn’t seem like it will be easy, but if you’re feeling this weigh on your mind about making the decision, then that seems to be a decision that, going in that direction of making it and storing it would be the best approach at that point.
But then otherwise it is kind of about weighing the options, and going with what you feel the most comfortable with from there.
Liz Wolfe: You know what I didn’t mention was milk banks and just even if you’ve got friends that are pumping, something like that. I’ve told a couple of my friends if they’re having trouble and they need a little bit of a break, I will breastfeed your baby. Don’t you worry about it. I just think we’ve gone so far from that community…
Diane Sanfilippo: And that’s what people used to do.
Liz Wolfe: Yeah, people used to do the whole tribal community oriented thing where we all share a little bit of responsibility for each other’s children. I’m totally down with going back to that place, because it’s not gross. It’s not gross to drink another, to get milk from a milk bank or to exchange frozen pumped breast milk, and it’s also not gross to nurse another woman’s baby. I’m sorry, it’s just not. If I could have a wet nurse, actually, I probably would.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: But there’s a million different ways to do this and you can get creative and feel confident in doing that because it’s just crazy to me how far we’ve been pushed from our ability to do things as a community and figure out the stuff together. Now we just feel like our fate is in the formula company’s hands, and it’s not.
Diane Sanfilippo: I feel like that was such an important thing to bring up, that I know I’ve had some friends that when they were breastfeeding their kids, they had really amazing supply. How great would it be if, if that’s your situation if you're listening, if you’re like, I have more milk than I need to pump it and freeze it and find a way to share it with somebody. Because there are so many mom’s who are in need and realizing that that is what we come from, that before infant formula was developed and created for sale, that is what we did.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: When you wonder, well what did baby’s eat before formula; nothing, it was breast milk. It just maybe wasn’t from their birth mother, and that’s ok. It’s like, not only was breastfeeding made to be so taboo to do in public, but all of that kind of balled together and was probably made even worse.
Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.
Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, we made breastfeeding this sexualized thing, we can’t do that in public, and also, heaven forbid you have an issue where you can’t produce breast milk or something is going on that you then couldn’t’ find a way to get it. You know?
Liz Wolfe: Right.
Diane Sanfilippo: That’s just like not having water for a baby. {laughs} So bringing that topic back out and kind of letting women know this is a really important issue and for every woman that kind of steps out and says, hey I’m willing to do this, or hey I have this I can help you out, or gives it to a bank or whatever the situation may be there. I just think the topic needs to come back up and we need to make that less taboo, because that’s how we’re going to probably affect the most change with the problem that we all know, it’s the elephant in the room. The problem is, that’s the only other solution that people have right now is formula, you know what I mean? And it’s not our most natural solution. End rant.
Liz Wolfe: End rant. I just wanted to repeat, we are in no way judging.
Diane Sanfilippo: No.
Liz Wolfe: Any decision to feed a baby, however. Well, ok. I’m not going to go that far. I’m not going to judge anybody’s decision to use formula whatsoever; to not breastfeed. Sometimes you can’t do it. You can’t make it work. But I want women to have options and not just feel like they’re stuck in the formula aisle.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yes.
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6. magical mushroom supplements [50:34]
Liz Wolfe: Alright, I think we have time for one more. How about the mushroom one?
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, let’s talk about {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: I bet that was fun. Let’s talk about ‘shrooms. “First I have to say, after listening to all of the Balanced Bites podcast, I feel like I could ask you anything. We’re like best cyber buddies. You two make my ride from point A to point B pleasurable, no road rage at all. Here’s my question. My sister-in-law is all about natural eating. She even gets her kids to eat organ meats like heart. Liver is a staple in her home. She, with this in mind, I trust her opinion on natural products. She has recently started sending me articles on,” I’m going to butcher this, “Lingzhi, an organic mushroom with so-called medicinal properties. Outside of reading the article she sent me, including a catalog from a company named Alphay International, I don’t know anything about this Lingzhi mushroom.
As I trust your opinion on everything from nutrients, animals, life, television, books, and let’s just say just about everything, I thought you could give me some guidance. Is there any truth to this mushroom?” {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: “Would it benefit me or harm me?” Is there truth to this mushroom. “Is it worth paying $70 bucks for a months’ supply. I’m trying to cut back on supplements and stick to real food. Help!”
I totally get that, by the way. I think before the baby came I threw away like 87 bottles of supplements that I had bought and just never took. Such a waste. Alright, “On a side note, how much is too much when it comes to sardines? Another fish for quality omegas. Additional notes: Love, love, love the two of you. I could listen to you all day long, getting ready to tackle my third 21-Day Sugar Detox. Get your awesomeness to Minnesota sometime.”
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: “Thoughts on horror movies? Are they getting too silly and not scary?”
Diane Sanfilippo: She goes on, I strongly suggest June to August, it’s a bit more pleasant. {laughs} I think that’s really funny.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs} “Well not sometime, but I strongly suggest June to August, as it’s a bit more pleasant than winter time.” Fair enough. My thoughts on horror movies, though.
Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}
Liz Wolfe: I don’t watch them. I think they’re a huge waste of money, and it makes me sad that some places in the world are lacking in clean water, yet studios are spending money on Saw 5. I think that is awful. So there you go.
Diane Sanfilippo: We share that distaste in cinema. I don’t like horror movies either. Ok, so a couple of things. This mushroom that, what was her name here? Shoot, I don’t have her name in here. This mushroom that her sister-in-law is talking about, it looks like in some digging that it’s a reishi mushroom, and reishi mushrooms definitely do have lots of nutritional benefits. I think generally you end up buying them dried and I think for the most part you end up doing things with them, like creating a powder and putting them in a capsule. Maybe there’s extracts. I don’t think most of the time we’re eating them, but you probably can also eat them, just as a whole food.
Sort of a general, what’s the deal with these mushrooms. {laughs} It’s kind of like when we talk about nutritional superfoods, like seaweed or liver or egg yolks, etc. That’s kind of what these mushrooms are. They’re known to be pretty potent. They’re generally talked about in terms of anticancer properties. So I was digging back through my notes from school, and from when I was working on Practical Paleo. Really just digging up that stuff about mushrooms, and again this is on reishi mushrooms, which it looks like these are a type of, that they can be immune stimulants. They can contain antiproliferative agents, and are pro apoptotic. I’m trying to make sure I say that right.
Liz Wolfe: {laughs}
Diane Sanfilippo: For cancer cells. So meaning spontaneous cell death, that’s apoptosis, promoting that in cancer cells. So what most people are seeing with medicinal mushrooms and use for them in folks who are concerned with anticancer treatments, things like that. We definitely are not talking here about medical treatments or recommendations for people. But, that’s what they’re known for.
They can enhance the production of bone marrow cells and natural killer cells, all types of, again, cancer fighting properties. So, are they a bunch of hooey? No, but do you need to supplement with them to the tune of $70 a month, probably not. So chances are, she’s selling them and maybe taking a cut; I don’t know what the case may be. I’m not saying she’s trying to swindle you {laughs} or anything, but a lot of times when people get really excited about one thing, and hey this happens with just getting excited about paleo, right? People think it’s the great panacea, and when it comes to paleo, it’s a little different.
Even writing a book, it’s not a quick fix, quick money making scheme or any of that. Whereas, a lot of times when somebody is trying to sell a product, just the motivation behind it, if there’s financial motivation, it’s really hard to separate the truth from the motivation. I absolutely am all for people who believe in something, going ahead and promoting it and selling it, I don’t have a problem with that, but the gravity of how important it is for you to take this thing every day might be sensationalized just a bit by the fact that this person can earn some money from it.
I don’t know if that’s the case with this, I tried to look into it but I couldn’t really tell. So that’s just kind of a little side note there. It’s not a bunch of hooey, there is some legitimacy there, but do you need to pay $70 a month for a supply of it? Probably not. Could it benefit you or harm you? It could probably benefit you, I don’t know that it could harm you, but that’s something that I would say is individual, and I don’t know what your health status is, and I wouldn’t be able to say if a certain supplement or concentrated super food, I don’t know if that can help or harm you specifically, but that’s kind of my take on the mushrooms, and that’s really the truth about it. They do have a lot of very well known; all different types of mushrooms, reishi, maitake, all different types have different properties. So there’s some truth to it.
Liz Wolfe: Cool.
Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. And then she said any thoughts about the seafood. “Side note, how much is too much when it comes to sardines and other fish for quality omegas?” I don’t really think you can overdose on real food sources of omegas. I think there is a small population of people who either don’t process omega-3s or omega-6s really well, and I feel like you would know. You would be experiencing ill effects if you were taking in too much of it, but generally when you’re eating whole food form, it’s pretty tough to overdose because just your appetite and satiety will limit you.
Liz Wolfe: Yep.
Diane Sanfilippo: Just don’t chug fish oil and you’ll be fine.
Liz Wolfe: Ew. Gross. Ok. So that’s about an hour.
Diane Sanfilippo: How did we do that? That was super fast.
Liz Wolfe: I have no idea.
Diane Sanfilippo: We had lots to say about those topics. Alrighty.
Liz Wolfe: Sure did. So that’s it. Thanks for tolerating my pregnant; not pregnant, my mommy brain {laughs} once again. You can find me, Liz, at http://realfoodliz.com/. Find Diane at http://dianesanfilippo.com. Join our email lists, you can do that through our websites. You’ll get free goodies, and you’ll get updates that you won’t find anywhere else on our website or on Facebook or on the podcast; email is where it’s at. And, while you’re on the internet, leave us an iTunes review if you don’t mind. We’ll talk to you next week.
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