Natural Light & Sleeping, Scheduled C-Section & Variety in Diet - Diane Sanfilippo, Liz Wolfe | Balanced Bites

Podcast Episode #264: Scheduled C-Section, Natural Light & Sleeping, & Variety in Diet

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TopicsNatural Light & Sleeping, Scheduled C-Section & Variety in Diet - Diane Sanfilippo, Liz Wolfe | Balanced Bites

1. News and updates from Diane & Liz [6:20]
2. Balancing mommy guilt while working [15:37]
3. Readers comments on previous podcasts [25:35]
4. Blocking light while sleeping [27:56]
5. Scheduled C-section [33:16]
6. The importance of variety in diet [45:29]
7. Parenting tip from Liz [54:41]






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Natural Light & Sleeping, Scheduled C-Section & Variety in Diet - Diane Sanfilippo, Liz Wolfe | Balanced Bites Natural Light & Sleeping, Scheduled C-Section & Variety in Diet - Diane Sanfilippo, Liz Wolfe | Balanced Bites

You’re listening to the Balanced Bites podcast episode 264.

Diane Sanfilippo: Welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast. I’m Diane; a certified nutrition consultant, and the New York Times bestselling author of Practical Paleo and The 21-Day Sugar Detox. I live in San Francisco with my husband and fur kids, and I love goat cheese, Fitbit challenges, and putting away laundry while listening to podcasts.

Liz Wolfe: I’m Liz; a nutritional therapy practitioner, and author of the Wall Street Journal best-seller Eat the Yolks; The Purely Primal Skincare Guide; and the online program Baby Making and Beyond. I live on a farm in the mystical land of the Midwest, outside of Kansas City, and I loved efficiency eating, Hannah Anderson pajamas, and fall.

We are the co-creators of the Balanced Bites Master Class, and we’ve been bringing you this award winning podcast for 5 years and counting. We’re here to share our take on modern paleo living, answer your questions, and chat with leading health and wellness experts. Enjoy this week’s episode, and submit your questions at Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content within this podcast are intended as general information only, and are not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Before we get started, let’s hear from one of our sponsors.

Diane Sanfilippo: Pete’s Paleo has opened a new location on the East Coast. Since they’re still operating out of San Diego, as well; this means local produce and meat coming from both coasts. And drastically reduced shipping prices. Check out their new and improved website, to take advantage of low shipping rates; and be sure to use coupon code 1FREEBACON. That’s the number 1; free bacon, and receive a free half pound of bacon with the purchase of a meal plan. Go to

Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone; it’s me Liz, here with Diane.

Diane Sanfilippo: Hey! {laughs} Liz…

Liz Wolfe: So.

Diane Sanfilippo: You need to explain efficiency eating, because I don’t know what this means. It sounds pretty good to me; but what is it?

Liz Wolfe: No, you’re going to hate it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh. Darn.

Liz Wolfe: Efficiency eating is opening up a can of boiled oysters and water and eating them standing up. With nothing in them, not drained, no kind of culinary flourishes whatsoever. Efficiency eating. And you know what, I’m basically trying to rebrand laziness and ineptitude as efficiency eating, because truth be told, I just; I mean, if I’m going to eat liver, it’s going to be with like no seasoning and with my nose plugged as I get it down. Because if the other option is not eating those things at all, you’ve got to eat them.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s sort of the opposite of foodie; like foodieism.

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: But, is that a word? {laughs} Foodieism. But it’s also, it’s a little bit like travel eating, right?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: “I just need this protein or protein and fat, and I’m going to get it down the pie hole.” But also, I feel like it’s a good way to force just eating the thing that people fuss over so much.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm. Just get it done.

Diane Sanfilippo: I like it. I’m good with it.

Liz Wolfe: Thank you!

Diane Sanfilippo: At home, I wouldn’t say it’s something I generally do too much of, because I am totally the foodie in this scenario; is one of us supposed to be a dog in this scenario?

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m the dog. I’m the dog. Anyway.

Liz Wolfe: Well, I’m flattered that you like it. And it’s funny because it’s probably the exact polar, diametric opposite of the way I do everything else in my life.

Diane Sanfilippo: Um, taking as much time as possible? {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Dragging my feet, thinking about it, gathering more information, agonizing, fixating. I think I definitely have a tonic versus phasic dopamine issue going on here. Hat tip, Chris Masterjohn.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s so nerdy.

Liz Wolfe: I know.

Diane Sanfilippo: We; this is, look. You’re not always an efficiency eater, though. You definitely like and appreciate foodie types of food. But this is definitely; even if I’m going for efficiency, I’m still going to end up with some kind of garnish, because it’s like I can’t even help it. I probably have salt, or olive oil, or lemon on me somewhere. Even down to eating yogurt on the go; the goat milk yogurt that I’ve been obsessed with lately, eating that on the go. I’m finding cinnamon in the hotel lobby, and I’m garnishing it {laughs}. You know, it’s like, I kind of can’t escape the fact that my awareness for garnishes and flavor items is just always turned on. So yeah.

Liz Wolfe: And I forget the salt quite frequently.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my gosh. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I know! I know. I’ve said before; I know that this horrifies you. So you’re eating your can of boiled oysters with like a sprig of thyme.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Definitely not thyme, but something like that, yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Ok. Can I tell you, before I ask you for your updates. So, we’re doing this new opening thing, right, where we’re talking at the beginning. We’re trying to keep it fresh, you know. So I have to tell you that when you were reading your part just now, it reminded me so much of; maybe it was the second grade; first or second grade play at Belinder Elementary School in Prairie Village, Kansas. We did the Nutcracker, and the love of my kindergarten life, Drew Austin, played the nutcracker; I think, or whoever was one of the speakers {laughs}. One of his lines was, “If I DOOO say so myself.” And it was just so, like, “Welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast.” For some reason it just reminded me of Drew Austin in the second grade play.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m not sure how I should take that.

Liz Wolfe: I know, I’m not sure how you should take it either.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m just going to let it, I’m just going to let it be.

Liz Wolfe: It was just really, like…

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m glad I brought up such a lovely memory for you.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} I’m doing like the fist; like yeah, like yeah buddy! Like, way to go.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Good job reading aloud!

Liz Wolfe: Yes, exactly. Good job with that.

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t like reading scripts. In fact, so much so, that I; well, I’ll share what I think about that soon.

Liz Wolfe: Ok.

Diane Sanfilippo: But anyway. I’m not a script person, it stresses me out.

1. News and updates from Diane & Liz [6:20]

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so what are your updates.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} So updates. Ok, you guys the Balanced Bites Master Class is like actually here. I feel like there should have been a drum roll for that.

Liz Wolfe: We can get a sound effect.

Diane Sanfilippo: Speaking of sound effects; also Scott was really excited to finally use a curse out beep for you a couple of weeks ago; I think he said it was an old fashioned car horn, like an “augha” kind of car horn {laughs}.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Anyway, the Balanced Bites Master Class. So, as this episode is going to air the week of; it will be October 6th, I guess this episode will air. We are opening enrollment for a beta testing group. So I know a lot folks listening are like; “oh, me, me, me, I want to be a beta tester.” But here’s the scoop with beta testers. It’s first opening up to folks who are my 21-Day Sugar Detox coaches. Just because; hey, there has to be some kind of fun, cool benefit for those who are already coaches in my program. So you guys are going to get first dibs. And after that, it’s actually only opening to folks who are some kind of practitioner within a health and fitness realm. And the reason for that is we have two tracks to the Master Class; we’ve got a student track and a practitioner track. And we do want our practitioners before they start acting in it as a practitioner to go through it as a student; you don’t have to be a beta tester to do that, but I want our beta testers to be able to sort of explore both sides of that.

I also know that any kinks we might have in the program; any technical issues, glitches, I don’t want folks enrolling as a student and having that as something that you run into. I really want this thing to be any edges polished and just everything really neatly done so that there aren’t issues for those of you who enroll as a student. A student or a practitioner when the time comes.

So the beta group will open up, and they’ll go through the course through October, November, and into December. The course is intended to be about 8-10 weeks, and that’s part of what the beta testers are going to figure out for us and help us see if we need to slow things down or speed things up a bit. And then we will open enrollment to everyone who is interested. There will probably be a limited number of seats, but we don’t know exactly how many. We have to kind of see how it’s going. But we anticipate that we’ll be able to leave enrollment open from about after Thanksgiving until about right after Christmas. So we’re going to have about a month of enrollment, and then the course will begin in January. Just like any other school might begin in January. We also have folks who obviously; you know, the holiday season is a tough time to just start into something, so we want to be able to give you guys that time to get prepared, we will be opening up a Facebook group, it’s a private group, for folks who are enrolled and you’ll be able to come in there and just kind of meet each other and hang out before the course begins in January.

But then it’s really going to be full on, starting in January, with about one or two modules a week depending on which module it is; obviously we have an introductory module, then we also have some that are a little bit more intensive. So we’ll obviously be talking a lot more about the Master Class in the coming weeks, but those of you have been listening to us for the last 5-plus years can really get more of a feel for what it is and what it’s all about, because I know some of you listening are like; “Yeah, but what is it?” Because it’s a video course, but we haven’t really given you full details yet. And we will be doing that very shortly.

So if you’re interested and just wanting to get into the beta round, just kind of stay tuned. I think if you’re on my emailing list you’ll probably get information about it, but my coaches and then other practitioners will be invited to that first.

Facebook live; just reminding everyone, I’m back for Thursdays on Facebook live 5 p.m. Pacific time; 8 p.m. Eastern. And if you are joining me over there, if you’re able to join me, great. If you’re not able to join live, we probably will be posting up either the day before or earlier in the day we’ll post up something about the topic that I’ll be talking about, and you’re welcome to leave your questions. Because if you can’t watch live, it’s totally fine, but this way I can get to your questions during the live video, and you’re able to of course watch that back any time.

I’ve got a quick heads up for folks who are in San Francisco or the Bay area. On Sunday, October 9th; that’s this coming Sunday, I’ll be at the Nike store on Union Street from 9 to 11 a.m. to do a talk about healthy eating for athletes. So if you’re in the area and you’d love to come join us, definitely check it out. We’ll put a link in the show notes. I’ll also link to it from Instagram. You do need to book a ticket and have your name on the list so that when you come in, they can check you off.

My last update is that in the coming weeks, and I don’t know the exact date, but stay tuned for that as well, Pete’s Paleo is going to be offering meals from Practical Paleo. So if you love Pete’s Paleo, or you haven’t tried it but you’re interested in trying it, but you’re like, well, but I don’t know if I’m going to like it. Well if you know that you like a lot of the recipes in Practical Paleo, I believe they’ve got maybe 4 or 5 of the recipes from the book they’re going to incorporate into the meal plans over at Pete’s Paleo. So I’m super excited about that. I think you guys are really going to love it. It’s just a fun thing; I thought, wouldn’t that be fun if we had a way for folks to get these meals from the book? So there you go; stay tuned for that. I’m sure we’ll have some kind of special offer too, so if you’re looking to order from Pete’s Paleo, make sure you check out the blog post from this episode, and the upcoming episodes, and I’m sure we’ll have some kind of code for you guys. So that’s it; what’s up with you?

Coupon Code: PRACTICALPALEO2 for $15 off (Expires 10/18/16)

Order here:

Liz Wolfe: Very cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, so much.

Liz Wolfe: I love Pete’s Paleo.

Diane Sanfilippo: There’s so much going on. I know! They’re the best.

Liz Wolfe: Speaking of efficiency eating, I buy their broth.

Diane Sanfilippo: Love it. It’s so good.

Liz Wolfe: It really is so good. And my daughter drinks it all day long. I think; you know, maybe we should start talking about this more. I know a lot of people love broth, and they’re like, yeah, you know, it really is a great idea, just based on how most people eat, most people aren’t eating collagen-rich type meats cooked in their own tendons and whatnot. So anytime you have chicken breast at a meal or hamburger or something like that; it’s a great idea just to accompany it with a little bit of broth. I like to match animals, so I like to have chicken broth if I’m having chicken, and I like to have beef broth if I’m having beef.

It’s a really good idea to deliver those, kind of a fuller suite of amino acids to your system at the same time as the other amino acids are going in, because those things are kind of used quickly. So maybe we’ll; we could do like a whole segment on broth and why it’s actually cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: We definitely could do that. And I think we could also talk about; I mean, if you want to talk about why it’s cool, I could talk about ways to eat it and drink it.

Liz Wolfe: Good idea.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because I think a lot of people also assume; which is probably what you’re doing and it’s fine, that you just basically have to grab a mug and sip the broth. But you totally don’t have to do that. At all. That’s not the only way to experience the benefits. Sometimes I’m into that, and sometimes I’m not. More often I’m not; more often I want to, you know {laughs} it’s not just about the efficiency.

Liz Wolfe: I know.

Diane Sanfilippo: I know. But I think, yeah, I think that would be a great topic.

Liz Wolfe: That would be good, I think people would like that. Other than that, I think we’re going to talk about this a little bit today. We had some awesome feedback; well, a lot of stuff lately, but some really good feedback on the Baby Making and Beyond podcast with Meg the Midwife. We’ll have to bring her on more.

{laughs} So I had a couple of people; like, “You have to do a baby podcast!” like a fertility baby podcast. And maybe once this gigantic; I’ve been in labor with this Baby Making and Beyond like 15-pound baby, and I have a cervical lip, and it’s posterior, sunny-side up, it’s just; it’s been difficult. And once that is done, we can talk about maybe doing a short segment here and there, maybe, for Baby Making and Beyond. But it’s just too much, I mean, I had to back off of Real Food Liz Radio and Modern Farm Girls, and just kind of streamline. But we’ll just have to have her on the podcast more because it did seem like people loved it.

And the other thing I wanted to do; since I don’t have a whole lot of updates, was I’ve just been thinking a lot lately about the work that I want to get done and the work I haven’t yet gotten done, things I’ve been working on forever and ever. And I’m just struggling a little bit; and with how amazing the emails that I’ve gotten lately. And if I haven’t gotten back to your emails, I’m really sorry. I read almost all of them; it’s just really hard for me to sit down and write a really awesome reply to most people. So rather than just writing, “Thanks so much for your email! Got it, bye!” I like to actually write something decent to folks, and that’s impossible. So rather than doing the superficial thing, I kind of just don’t write people back. {laughs} So I’m sorry. But I do see what people say, and I’ve had a lot of really wonderful, supportive, helpful emails from folks about baby stuff, and about mom stuff, and it’s been amazing.

2. Balancing mommy guilt while working [15:37]

Liz Wolfe: And in that vein, I’m just curious for folks who are working moms, because I guess at this point I could qualify as technically a working mom, even though I’m just trying to patch together work in the time that I have. I’m just trying to figure out a good reason why it’s ok, when you can stay home but you choose not to. Because I’m having a lot of guilt about that, feeling like I want to actually work; like, I want to have childcare and have that block during the day where somebody else is taking care of my kid and actually getting some work done and putting together something of value for people. But I just feel incredibly guilty that I can stay home with her, but yet sometimes I don’t want to, because she’s obviously the love of my life. My husband has no choice but to work, so it’s not like he could stay home and I could leave the house.

And I’ve heard that argument, “It’s so great for your daughter to see you working, and see you working hard at something.” Ok, yeah, I get that. But she can see me working hard at something while I’m at home with her, so I’m just struggling with that. I feel like I want somebody to make me feel better about this desire that I have. Maybe help me out a little bit. So if anybody wants to leave a comment on the Instagram post for this podcast episode, or write me an email, or whatever. I’d be glad to hear.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you want me to talk to you about it?

Liz Wolfe: Ok. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: No?

Liz Wolfe: Sure, go ahead.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think, you know, I’m the kind of friend, and you know this about me. Whatever you want me to argue for you, I will.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: If you’re like, tell me it’s ok that I don’t work, I’ll tell you that it’s ok that you don’t work. And if you’re like, tell me it’s ok that I work; I will tell you that it’s ok that you work. I just try to be as supportive as possible. But quite honestly, for the last year-plus, I’ve been like, it’s ok if you don’t want to do this work right now. I’ve definitely been in that camp, because I feel like you have had, you’ve put a lot of guilt on yourself over not spending as much time with her. And I think as soon as; again, as soon as someone gives you permission, then the time that you spend with her is more focused and the energy is there, and you’re less distracted and you’re more present. And I think that is better time that we spend with anyone. And this is the same, you know, ok it’s not the same to compare just spending time with friends to your child who is in developmental years and whatnot; but to some extent, spending time with friends and looking at our phone is not being fully present. And at some point, we need to give ourselves permission to not pay attention to work, and just be present with whoever we’re present with.

And I think there’s also this call for the work that you’re doing; and this is not only personal to you, it can be a lot of folks who are our listeners. But, what if the work that you’re doing is helping a lot of people live better lives? You know? It’s not like; and even if it’s not. What if the work you want to do is, I don’t know, making trinkets? That still probably brings joy to somebody’s life. Whatever it is, I think that pull and that call and that urge to do that work; I don’t think that that’s in vain ,and I don’t think that’s something that should make you feel guilty for doing that instead of also being able to spend time with your kid. To be able to take the time you’re going to take with your kid and be focused on it; and be focused on this work that’s serving so many people.

I mean, I think that’s part of our nature, is that it feels good to serve others, and you have something that you want to share with people that people are asking you for, that they’re saying they need, that they need help with, and that they want from you. So I don’t think it’s a bad thing to be wanting to do it at all or feel guilty about. I think it obviously feeds a different part of your human persona to be able to fulfill that as well as fulfill being a mom. And I think to squash either of those is probably too difficult and I think a lot of women maybe squash one or the other, and then later in life have a lot of regrets. And I think as much as we can try and find a balance where we do say; “Ok, I’m going to take this time and focus on this other thing that’s part of me, Liz, before I was a mom, while I’m a mom, and forever.” That part of you as someone who loves to research, and educate, and support others in their journey. That doesn’t go away just because you came a mom.

Liz Wolfe: Right.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think ignoring it is ignoring who you are, and I think inevitably you would feel really badly down the road for ignoring that part of yourself; you know what I mean?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. That’s kind of how I’m feeling right now. But you also; so kind of to play devil’s advocate a little bit, but also just to maybe reframe my question. You’re 100% right about the whole being present thing. So I tell myself; well maybe the challenge is really just delineating. I need a block of time to work that when I’m done; I am done. Versus, oh 15 minutes here. Can I find 15 minutes right now? Where, you know, half of my mind is somewhere else because I’m looking for those opportunities to work, so I become less present during all of my time with my kid, which at this point is all of my time.

So, is it the delineating that I need to do, where I take these chunks, and then I commit to being present? Or, is the problem, you are a lucky-freaking-stay-at-home-mom, just suck it up and figure out how to be present all the time; the end. So, that was kind of another part of it.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think this is the challenge that everybody has with their own lives, regardless of whether it’s a child and work; I think people have this challenge when it comes to social media and work. Right? Like the difference between time that might get sucked into a social media rabbit hole, versus actually doing work. And I do think at the end of the day we probably each need to figure out what works for us, but I think that delineating and creating boundaries that we decide are appropriate and we figure out do work for us; not arbitrary boundaries that someone else sets. Like, you check your email at this time and this time every day; well maybe that’s not appropriate for you or it’s not going to work for you. Maybe working out at 7 in the morning doesn’t work for someone. But finding what works for you. And if it works one day, try it again another day. You know, and see if that also works that day. And that’s the best we can do. I really think that, and going day by day what worked and iterate on that, you know. Just feel our way through it, because I don’t think there’s one answer, I just think we have to constantly figure it out.

But I do think that it’s just like multitasking, right? We actually can’t multitask. It’s actually not efficient.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, it’s not a real thing. Multitasking.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: It’s like doing a bunch of things crappily. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, and I think we all discover that. And I think what happens is we allow ourselves to go through time just being distracted because we’re not ready to focus on the thing that we’re supposed to focus on, and then I think when the ish comes down, we make the decision. Like if you really had a deadline, you would probably figure out a way to make it happen, you know what I mean?

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, that’s what I had to do with re-writing Practical Paleo. It was like, I was half working on it, and half procrastinating for a long time. And then I was like; oh, this really does have to get done now. You know? And things changed.

Liz Wolfe: I know a lot of parents that work multiple jobs; well not a lot. I know my fair share of parents who work multiple jobs; let’s say they work one job all day long, they go to school at night, they work another job on the weekends. There are a lot of people figuring stuff out, and I think that deadline point is probably one I need to marinate on for a little bit, but theoretically I absolutely could wake up 3 hours earlier. I could wake up at 4 a.m., or I could put her down at 8 o'clock and work for 3 hours instead of hanging out with my husband. So I could figure this stuff out, it’s really a matter of figuring it out in a way that makes me happy. And I know we don’t all have that luxury.

So if anybody does see fit to reply to me on this topic; the two things that I need more than just the standard comment on. I don’t want to; if you please. If you plan on leaving a comment, having childcare is a great way to socialize your kid; you know, we’re not necessarily talking about daycare. But say daycare is a great way to socialize your kid! I don’t want to just hear that. I want to hear personal anecdotes. Because I understand that in theory, but for some reason I just don’t necessarily, it’s not enough for me. So the whole socializing thing; and the seeing mom leaving the house and working and all of that stuff. Go a little deeper than that. Tell me a little bit more because it’s just; I’m not, no comprende quite yet. I need a little bit more than that. But I would appreciate anybody’s insight.

Liz Wolfe: The Balanced Bites podcast is sponsored in part by the Nutritional Therapy Association. The NTA trains and certifies nutritional therapy practitioners and consultants, including me, I’m an NTP, emphasizing bio-individuality and the range of dietary strategies that support wellness. The NTA emphasizes local, whole, properly prepared nutrient dense foods as the key to restoring balance and enhancing the body’s ability to heal. Nutritional therapy practitioners and consultants learn a wide range of tools and techniques to assess and correct nutritional imbalances. To learn lots more about the nutritional therapy program, go to There are workshop venues in the US, Canada, and Australia, so chances are you’ll be able to find a venue that works for you.

3. Readers comments on previous podcasts [25:35]

Liz Wolfe: Ok. Let’s do some comments from previous comments, shall we?

Diane Sanfilippo: We shall?

Liz Wolfe: We really love to hear people’s feedback, so we appreciate this. And if you haven’t listened to these episodes yet, then maybe this will be the push that you need to go back and listen. This is one from the podcast that I recently did with Dr. Amy Myers about her new thyroid book. “I really loved this podcast. I was diagnosed with Graves’ in 199 and was given radioactive iodine because, according to my Endo, that was just how it was handled. It took an unbelievable number of years to get my Synthroid dosage correct; nearly 10. And by that time, I was 60 pounds heavier. I dieted, lost 40 pounds, got pregnant, what a blessing, and had my son at the age of 45. My weight climbed back up, and I found paleo courtesy of my cross-fitting daughter in 2014. I lost the weight again, got off my blood pressure medications, and my Endo stopped talking pre-diabetes at every appointment. I love paleo eating, and credit it with enriching and saving my life; I just wish Dr. Myers had been around in ’97.”

Alright, this one is from one of our episodes with Meg the Midwife. “Loved that episode, cannot wait for Baby Making and Beyond to come out. I’ve been on a fertility journey for 5 years, but with good lifestyle changes, exercising regularly, and eating more primally, I’m so much healthier today. Thanks for all the wisdom and sage advice you give; you always provide hope for my unwritten future story.”

Another comment, “This made me cry. One of my favorite podcast episodes ever. So many things resonated with me. Thank you for taking such a compassionate approach to motherhood for all the time researching and for sharing so much with us.” Thank you for that comment. Thank you for all of these comments.

This one; “OMG! Totally, seriously, and completely loved the first question.” I believe this is in reference to the first question of the first episode with Meg the Midwife. “My little one is now 2, and I’m still on the journey. Thanks for the reminder that it takes as long as it takes, and for the avenues to help my healing. Holy cow, never thought about my daughter’s need to heal. My next quest. Love you Liz; keep being you because you are the best.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Love that!

Liz Wolfe: This just; thank you. This means a lot to me. I’m not really good at emoting on these things; it’s hard for me to spontaneously emote, but I just, I appreciate this so much more than I can say, so thank you guys for replying.

4. Blocking light while sleeping [27:56]

Liz Wolfe: OK what now?

Diane Sanfilippo: Questions?

Liz Wolfe: Questions. I feel like I’m doing a lot of talking right now.

Diane Sanfilippo: You are doing a lot of talking, but I like it. I like to hear you talk.

Liz Wolfe: Thanks. Alright, questions. This one is for Diane; this is from Carolina C. about artificial light and sleeping. “Hi Diane! During your New Jersey stop on the book tour, you mentioned your routine of covering any artificial light, such as lights on the TV, alarm clock, and doorway, in your hotel rooms to get quality sleep. I was wondering if natural sources of light are disruptive to sleep, as well. I live around 45 minutes from New York City in an area that is not very densely populated, and our bedroom faces out to forested state land. Since we enjoy the view, my husband and I decided not to install any window treatments. Would we be better off covering the windows to block out the natural light from the moon in an effort to improve sleep quality, or is this not a concern? It was a pleasure to meet you during the tour, and I love my new hardcover copy of Practical Paleo.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Cool, I love that. Really good question. So a couple of things here; number one, first off, about me covering lights in the hotel room. It is mostly artificial light, but if there were a bright moon shining outside, I’d be doing my darndest to get those shades to close and block that as well. I think she was kind of alluding to the fact that I will put whatever I can find over, around, on like the television or unplug an alarm clock; which, by the way I was in a room recently where the alarm clock was set, and I thought that was the most obnoxious thing. Like, I didn’t expect it.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like, who would leave that? Anyway. But, part of the light situation, we are getting exposed to a ton of light all day long, and especially blue light. Obviously from computer screens. So I’m going to make a couple of assumptions here about the type of everyday lifestyle that Carolina has regarding light exposure; assuming that she is looking at a screen for a lot of the day. And you know, Carolina if you are not, if you’re working outside, then this might be really different. And assuming that you have overhead lights on in your house. Part of the reason why we want to black out our room and make it as dark as possible overnight is to sort of counterbalance or counteract the amount of light exposure that we’re getting all day long from other sources that are artificial. So, in this case, blocking out light from the moon is something that I would recommend; but look, if she’s living a lifestyle that doesn’t have as much artificial light exposure all day long, and the moon is out there and it doesn’t seem to disrupt her sleep, and she’s getting to sleep and staying asleep and waking up rested, probably not a big deal.

But if you feel like your sleep quality could be improved, then the light from the moon could be something to block out. And obviously, going back in time, we wouldn’t be able to block that out, but we may have been able to sleep in shelters that would mostly block that light out. I don’t know. I’m not digging through the research on how paleo man may or may not have blocked out light. But looking at the type of light that we’re exposed to today, and how to counterbalance that and support ideal or optimal melatonin production, I would say generally; yeah, still block it out. But if you’re sleeping with it and it’s not causing any problems for you, and you feel like you can get quality sleep, then maybe it’s not that big of a deal.

A lot of times folks who are in a very dark area are dealing with floodlights that are going on; maybe they’re on a light sensor or they’re just kind of shining onto your property, for safety reasons and things like that. And in that case you would definitely want to block that out as well. But that’s kind of my take. I think you have to see what your situation really dictates there. But I don’t know; I would probably block it, but I would try to find some window coverings that, when they’re not in use, are as unobscuring, if that’s a word, as possible so that you can enjoy that nice view during the daytime and get as much natural light in as possible during the daytime, as well.

Liz Wolfe: That’s very interesting. I had never thought about the whole, just kind of swinging the pendulum as far as we can in the other direction to counteract all the artificial light exposure. It’s a very interesting perspective. I’ve thought about this, actually, quite recently because we have such beautiful sky out where I live. I mean, the night sky is just full of stars, and the moon can be so bright sometimes. I always; you know, when I used to go to camp, I would love to just look outside and see the stars and fundamentally, those things don’t disrupt sleep in a biologically inappropriate way.

But we have, like you were just talking about, one of those big floodlights on our property. I don’t know what it’s connected to, I can’t turn it off, it’s definitely for safety, and I feel safer with it because there are no street lights where I am. So, we can’t just stare up at the stars at night through pitch blackness, and enjoy that. So yeah, good, very interesting stuff. Interesting stuff from Diane.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

4. Scheduled C-section [33:16]

Liz Wolfe: Alright. This one; oh, this one is for me. This is from Nicole; this is about an upcoming scheduled C-section. “Hello; question about an upcoming scheduled C-section. The baby isn’t due until the end of March 2017,” so for once we’re getting to somebody’s question before the relevant event is happening.

Diane Sanfilippo: Before it’s {laughs} yeah, before it’s 3 months after, we’re like; oops, sorry, guess you’ve already handled that. Let us know how it went!

Liz Wolfe: Oops, sorry. Alright. “My first baby was an unexpected C-section; the typical cascade of events, intending an unmedicated birth, laboring went ‘too long’ and started pitocin, the typical path followed and 30-plus hours later we were in the OR. I’ve recovered well, and thought; ‘at least I can try for a VBAC with the next.’ We got pregnant sooner than expected, and the babies” The babies? Oh, oh my gosh, I thought she was saying ‘babies’ like she was pregnant with twins. “The babies will be almost 17 months apart. The surgeon says we’ll need to have a scheduled C-section. I’m trying to get it scheduled for the latest day possible in hopes of going into labor naturally. I’m disappointed, but wondering what I can do to help with the process. Are there any supplements, pre or post, to help with healing? What about the baby not getting the good bacteria from a vaginal birth? Thank you for your help; you ladies are wonderful and I truly appreciate the work you do.

Typical daily food is a paleo type diet with occasional dairy. I run 15-20 miles a week and try to get in around 20 minutes most days. I’m 15 weeks pregnant, and do what my body feels like. Sleep is fairly good, around 7 hours a night; minimal pregnancy insomnia, and I’m on the Smarty Pants prenatal and probiotic. Dairy three times a month; oatmeal three times a week.”

Ok, so there’s a lot here. I believe that I was mistaken; I believe that this is one baby that will be coming, and her two babies, the one she’s currently pregnant with and her first baby, will be almost 17 months apart. So, this is not what she asked, but I’m going to throw it in there anyway. And before I do so, I want to say that healthy babies are born in many different ways; if you are most comfortable acquiescing to your doctor’s advice and scheduling a repeat, or a second C-section, totally cool. I’m not one of those women; I’m not one of those people who is so aggressively pro-VBAC; I’m extremely pro-VBAC, 100%, but if you spend any time around the VBAC, which is vaginal birth after C-section; if you spend any time around the VBAC groups, it’s almost like the polar opposite of the whole medicalized C-section world, but it’s so in opposition to that that it’s identity is almost completely wrapped up in opposing anything and everything a pro-C-section practitioner has to say.

And I’m very much; I’m actively in those VBAC groups, and I hear from a lot of women who are being erroneously told that their only option is a C-section; for example, for a big baby, or for whatever reason you can think of. And the fact is, there are practitioners who are well educated, MDs, OBs, who will do a VBAC with babies that are spaced this closely. They will monitor you really closely, they will make sure everything looks good, and they’ll make sure everything is fine. Generally, you want to wait about a year between babies if you’ve had a C-section; I think that’s decent advice for many reasons. In part because a C-section is, you know, it’s traumatic to the body. But if you’re recovering well, then that’s a good sign for your next birth, even if it’s a little bit closer to your first than you had originally planned.

So my point is; I’m very pro-VBAC, but I’m not one of those people that’s going to sit there and say, “Your surgeon is lying to you about what you need! You need to switch providers right now!” It’s not that. But, if you feel like, hey I want to talk to another OB who might be more open to VBAC with children that are spaced 17 months apart, then you should feel comfortable doing that because there are many, many women who have had vaginal birth after C-sections with this type of child spacing.

So, if you’re not comfortable taking what your surgeon says at face value, absolutely look into the ICAN, I-C-A-N, international cesarean awareness network websites and groups. But definitely take a lot of the discussion with a grain of salt, because there are women in those groups who have been deeply hurt by unwanted C-sections and are absolutely, in all ways, aggressively against any kind of medical advice that includes the discussion of a C-section.

And again, like I said, healthy babies are born in many, many ways. So I support anything that a mom feels comfortable with. I think it’s important to always have contingency plans for whatever you’re doing, just because the unexpected does happen. And that doesn’t mean that you’re opening yourself up to the possibility of something unwanted happening; it just means that you’re prepared. So this is all coming from my experience, obviously, and you can take my experience with a grain of salt if you feel that that’s best.

Now, to answer the actual question, which is helping with the process, supplements, the baby not getting the good bacteria; I’ll kind of tackle these in an itemized way. Look into some of the stuff at the birth fit website; it’s a really good resource for movement during pregnancy. How to keep your body supple, and give your baby just the best experience possible in utero. Which is important for both C-section babies and vaginally birthed babies. Look into the spinning babies website; just anything that keeps your body in the best condition possible. Looking at yourself as a whole person and how you can move your body in ways that are beneficial to the baby. Again, this applies to anybody, nobody what kind of birth you’re having.

The whole swab thing; I think there’s no reason not to do it unless you’re relatively suspicious of the health of your vaginal flora in the first place. So if I was somebody that had chronic recurring yeast infections, or issues like that, I probably would actually skip the swab. We did not do the swab for no other reason than I was completely shell shocked by my unplanned, unexpected, unwanted C-section, and I just; I got the swab and we never did it. And my baby is fine. I know that is anecdotal; but I think that there are so many other things that play into the health of a newborn than just whether you got the swab or not, and I agonized over it for a really long time, the fact that we didn’t do it.

But if you’re healthy; yeah, go for it. I don’t really think there’s any great reason not to. Do a probiotic for baby if you’re breastfeeding; which hopefully you’ll be able to give that a try and make that work. Just dust a little bit of, I don’t know, the Clear Labs infant probiotic is a favorite of a lot of practitioners; I think there are others out there that practitioners like. You can dust a little of the probiotic on your nipple, enable baby to get a little bit of that. You don’t need to go crazy on the probiotic just because baby was born via C-section.

The bacterial blueprint from the environment is kind of a slow, consistent, thing. So one of my favorite things to tell new moms to do is just hold that baby and don’t put it down if you don’t have to. It’s really important, especially when baby is born in a hospital, that you do your best to enable baby to get as much from your personal microbiome as possible versus the hospital microbiome. Which, as we all know, can be very much compromised just by the obsessive and necessary constant disinfecting of that environment.

So on that note; watch your personal care products, because you are ideally going to be doing a lot of skin to skin in those coming days, and you don’t need perfume, and synthetics, and lotions, and potions, and all that type of stuff disrupting your skin’s microbiome. So care for that; your own skin’s microbiome, as much as possible. There are probiotic lines of personal care products that are great. Good, healthy chlorine filtered water is a good thing to shower in. you can get chlorine filter showerheads on Amazon; they’re pretty affordable.

What else did I want to talk about? No bath. Skip the bath, even for a C-section baby. Just hopefully you can do something, which I guess in most places is called like a gentle C-section or a family-centered C-section where you have delayed cord clamping, if at all possible. Immediate skin to skin, no bath, no toweling off of the vernix or anything that baby was coated in in utero, because those things also serve a purpose. So just keep that on the baby; let him be crusty for a while if that’s the way it goes. No bath.

Let’s see; don’t put the baby down if you don’t have to, skin to skin, I’m kind of doing this out of order here from my notes. One of the things I do like for C-section babies is craniosacral therapy from a trusted, well referenced practitioner that can; I don’t know, just kind of provide some of the stimuli that baby might need after birth when they have not been able to make that decent down the birth canal, as I think is kind of a biological imperative. So that’s something that we did. If you’re comfortable with it; great. The amount of pressure used is literally nothing. It’s basically just finding somebody that knows those particular hot points, just to literally put a tiny bit of pressure on. And it can be a really cool thing. And it can help with a lot of issues, from nursing issues to so-called colic, and things like that. I think that would be really good.

Let’s see; this is not along the physical health lines, but whether it’s you or your husband, talk to your baby. Talk to your baby about what’s going to happen before baby is even born. Visualize for yourself what’s going to happen. This is woo-woo, but I don’t care. I think it works; I think it matters. You communicate to your baby from the moment they’re inside of your body and from the moment they leave your body. So one of the things that I had the wherewithal to tell my husband to do when we were shipped off unceremoniously from the birth center to the ER was to tell him; as soon as they take her out, talk to her. Just let her know you’re right there; put your hand on her, because the place we were going didn’t do family centered C-sections. And I think it’s really important the baby hears those voices through the buzz of all of the other people that are in the OR. So just talk to the baby, very gently, very calmly, until you’re able to actually hold the baby and talk to them with them in your arms. I think that’s really important.

Above all; don’t freak out. Healthy babies are born in lots of circumstances. Post op I actually didn’t take any pain medications at all. I think that might have been the adrenaline that was kind of covering up any pain sensing that I would have had under normal circumstances. But, I did take the bovine tracheal cartilage supplement that you can get through; oh gosh, I think Vital Proteins has it. That’s a good one; I think has it too. I think I had a chat with someone over at Dr. Ron’s about that being a really good supplement post surgery. So that could be good. Lots of broth, eating nose to tail, that type of thing, is what’s really going to give you the best raw materials for healing.

And definitely listen; I think you probably already did. Listen to the episodes I did with Meg the Midwife, because we talked a little bit about birth processing and all that type of stuff. So, best of luck, and congratulations on baby number two!

5. The importance of variety in diet [45:29]

Liz Wolfe: Ok. Alright, this question is from Amanda. “Hi Liz and Diane! First of all, thank you for all of your hard work in getting information to people about general health. You’re approach is so refreshing, and you ladies make me laugh every episode with your Princess Bride and Bravo references. My main question for you is whether I’m getting enough variety in my diet, and how to follow a meal plan as a young woman living solo. I’m single, I live alone, and I’m on a tight budget. The higher quality foods obviously come at a price, so I buy a few ingredients in bulk, cook it up for the week, and worry about buying too much and wasting foods, as I’m the only person in my household to eat these foods. Generally speaking, should one worry about getting enough variety in their diet? I have digestive issues and inflammation in my body, described below, and wonder if I’m doing myself a disservice.

I’m just starting the digestive health protocol in Diane’s Practical Paleo second edition,” Whoop, whoop! “As I have inconsistent digestive behaviors and carry inflammation in my body, which I have for years. I have mild issues in my joints; mostly knees and hands. I joke about being 28 going on 82. After seeing a naturopath about a year and a half ago, my adrenal health is on the mend, I’ve gone off the pill; my estrogen was crazy low, and I’m still trying to regulate my hormones and inflammation levels. I’ve also carried anxiety for as long as I have been on this planet, and I’ve been seeing a therapist to deal with anxiety and my relationship with food. If you get to this question, I apologize for the length, and I appreciate your time and any advice you have to give.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Alright.

Liz Wolfe: You want me to read the rest?

Diane Sanfilippo: No, I think it’s ok, I think we can cover it from here.

Liz Wolfe: Ok, cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I’m going to guess for Amanda that when she says she’s worried about getting enough variety; well, there’s two things she could be talking about here. One, she could be talking about simply eating similar foods over and over again; that is something I wouldn’t say to worry about, but I would say to be aware of and perhaps create a plan to make change for. So, as somebody who is saying she was born with and carried anxiety for a long time, definitely not something I want to encourage you to worry about.

But, if you do find that you’re eating the same things over and over again; for sure. I mean, this is where having recipes and having freezer containers and things that you can put away, because you’re obviously not going to eat it all at once, I think that’s a great way to kind of approach that. But, if you’re worried about perhaps eating the same thing over and over again for a couple of days and then needing to change it; because obviously, let’s just say you cook a recipe and it makes 8 servings, and you just don’t really need to eat that more than 3 or 4 times in a row before you're over it, and maybe it’s going to go in the freezer. That’s totally fine. When we talk about rotating proteins or getting all different types of nutrients and types of proteins and types of veggies and all of that good stuff, it’s at large. It doesn’t need to be every single day you’re getting a mixture of red meat and fish and poultry and all of that. It’s really just in general, over the course of days, weeks, months; long term. Does that make sense?

So, you know, what I would say is; if you are following a meal plan, then opt for the inexpensive cuts of meat. One of the changes that I made to the recipes in Practical Paleo was, instead of calling something, for example, Bison Cocoa Chili or Butternut Bison Cocoa Chili, I forget what the old name was of the recipe for the chili in the book. But I took out some of the specific protein names in the recipes; because originally I wanted folks to look at them as ways to use bison, because I know a lot of us at one point were able to find ground bison and we didn’t know what to do with it. But now I’ve taken the approach of, well I’m just going to call it this chili and give you options for protein in the ingredients list, so you can use whatever is most convenient or palatable to you. But I think that’s a chance to just explore a little bit.

Let’s just say you normally do ground beef; try ground bison. Try something different; ground turkey isn’t my personal favorite. If you’re looking at what to include and what to maybe not think about as often in terms of including; poultry is really probably the least nutrient dense protein that we can choose. If you were going to choose, let’s say two categories of proteins, I would want you to choose red meat and seafood. Ideally over something like poultry or pork; which I love pork, I’m kind of, it might be one of my favorites, but in terms of nutrition, I think we’re getting great nutrient density from grass-fed beef; any grass fed animals, but also from wild caught fish.

And you don’t have to be doing; let’s just say my salmon bowl is in your recipe, in your meal plan. If you can’t do the salmon bowl for price reasons, for budget reasons; use canned salmon. No big deal. Mix it in; put some lemon, put some olive oil, whatever you’re going to put on it to dress it up. Being specific about the cuts of meat is less important than the variety overall. So I think that might be a little bit of permission to kind of do what Liz was talking about; stand in the kitchen with your oysters or sardines or whatever it’s going to be and get that stuff into your diet. But I wouldn’t worry so much about specific cuts and expensive versions.

I wouldn’t worry so much that you might eat the same thing for a few meals in a row. That is kind of; when we talk about, I don’t know, perhaps what our ancestors would have done, they probably would have eaten the same thing several meals in a row, and then move on to something else, and kind of rotate it that way. And that’s a very common approach to protein rotation, is to eat the same thing for a few meals in a row, or the same type of protein, and then rotate from there. Some people find that they have food intolerances; let’s just say you're eating eggs all the time, and you're eating eggs three times a day. Some people will experience food intolerances when they do that versus if they were to spread that protein out and not eat it quite so often. So that’s something you can just see how you feel with. But that’s really the approach that I would take; and try and mix those proteins up.

Try and mix up the vegetables. If you’re budgeting, buying what’s in season is really going to be where you’re going to save money at the grocery store; looking at what’s on sale and in season. Don’t stress about it too much; I would definitely make what you’re going to make, and then freeze a lot of it, so that you can come back to it, make it easier on yourself, freeze single serving portions. My friend, Cassy Joy, from Fed and Fit, her new book obviously Fed and Fit just came out, and she talks about that all the time. She’s like; I cook for my freezer most of the time, because she doesn’t want to be cooking, and then cooking again, cooking again. So I think that’s a really good approach to take in this case as well, if you’re cooking for one or if you're cooking for two. I think it can apply in both cases.

Liz Wolfe: Alrighty.

Diane Sanfilippo: You know the only other thing I was going to tell her about the digestive health meal plan; and I guess, I don’t think I mentioned this on the podcast. I was mentioning it throughout book signing events; is that if you are following a meal plan in Practical Paleo, the food itself, the calendar of food, is actually the least important part of the meal plan. They’re called meal plans, I guess for the lack of a better term, because it’s really a lifestyle plan, and lifestyle recommendations are what I want everyone; if you’re going to start in with the food, that’s totally fine. But I need you to pay attention to the general diet and lifestyle add and avoid page, because that’s really where you’re going to get the most bang for your buck, as well.

I’m not sure; I should probably flip to it. I’m not sure if I address this directly in the digestive health plan; for sure it’s in the adrenal plan. Dealing with things like anxiety and stress is absolutely going to affect her digestion in this case. So she might find that she’s eating the perfect food from the plan for a month, but if her stress and anxiety levels are still higher than what her body truly wants to be able to digest food properly, then the food itself isn’t going to make as much of a difference as perhaps she would like. So I just want to reiterate that point and just kind of drive it home that we need to make sure that the terrain; the landscape of our body that we’re putting the food into is kind of on the path of healing as much as it can be, because the food itself can only do; it can only do so much. It has to be put into a body that can really handle it and digest it properly.

Liz Wolfe: Today’s podcast is sponsored by Vital Choice Seafood and Organics, where a healthy diet is a vital choice. Purveyors of wild fish, shellfish, grass-fed beef and bison; Vital Choice offers premium quality, sustainably sourced foods that are wildly delicious and delivered to your door. With minimal prep from freezer to table, it’s easy to get delicious protein like wild Alaskan salmon, my favorite; and Wagyu beef into your paleo menu rotation. Vital Choice also has a wide array of ready to eat canned seafood along with satisfying snacks like organic dark chocolates, super antioxidant trail mix, and bison jerky. Celebrate the holidays, and your health, with premium seafood and organics from

6. Parenting tip from Liz [54:41]

Diane Sanfilippo: Hey, Liz; how about we get a parenting tip from you?

Liz Wolfe: I love that people are actually trusting me with any kind of parenting advice! {laughs} I literally, I can do all of the stuff that happens before the baby comes out, but now at this point, 18 months later, I’m lost. Not really. So I found some value in a couple of different parenting philosophies, and I know people have heard me talk about aware parenting, which I think is absolutely; if you are hell bent on subscribing to one single parenting philosophy and not taking any wisdom from any other place, I would say aware parenting is the place to go.

But I have also enjoyed some of the stuff that I have cleaned from RIE; R-I- E, it’s an acronym; Resources for Infant Educarers. It’s a philosophy that I guess was first advocated or created by Magda Gerber, and I cannot remember who Magda’s mentor was. But anyway, I’ve read all the books and I’ve listened to a lot of podcasts with Janet Landsbury; who, I generally like. I do have some qualms with some of the approach, I think it doesn’t get super deep into some of the things that aware parenting does address.

But something I really like about the RIE approach is the concept of staying unruffled, and the idea that kids do need a leader that is confident enough not to lose their, you know what, S-H-I-T, when things get a little crazy. And I have found this to be really important for me now that I have a toddler who is really kind of discovering her own autonomy and having her own opinions about a lot of things, and sometimes I just feel like, “What do you want?!” Yet, RIE ideas have helped me remain cognizant of the fact that toddlers are supposed to test limits; that is their job, and it’s my job to provide a consistent and compassionate place for them to try out all of these new ideas and new thoughts.

So, for example, and I get some of this from Janet Landsbury’s podcast, which is called Unruffled, which I think is good. For example, if the kiddo is just screaming, making noise, being crazy, it would actually be kind of more destabilizing in the long-term to a kid to have me just go a little crazy in that moment, or yell back, or match their level of intensity. And I think that’s totally valid.

To the degree that we can, staying calm, and acknowledging; not necessarily ignoring, but acknowledging big feelings, and big noises, and big needs, I think is important. So if my kid was screaming and hanging onto my leg and really needing something that I just couldn’t give her in that moment, rather than saying, “Stop it! I can’t help you right now!” I would say something like, “You are really, really telling me that you need something from me. I can’t help you right now, but I will take care of you when I can.” That type of thing. So just really contextualizing it in a way that diffuses anger has been really effective for me.

So I think a lot of us know; yeah, don’t freak out at your kids. But just thinking about the fact that, this is all ok; kids go crazy sometimes, they behave erratically, they behave like insane drunk college students at the end of a bender; understanding that that’s normal, and it’s cool, and the way we respond to it is actually a really good way to strengthen our relationship and strengthen our kids perceptions of us as confident leaders, I think is really, really important. So there’s that space between indulging a behavior that you don’t necessarily like, and punishing a behavior that you don’t necessarily like. And I’ve found a lot of that in the RIE philosophy. So I kind of combine pieces of RIE with mostly aware parenting type stuff, and also all of the things I’ve learned from my own experience and learning to trust my gut.

How do you like that Diane?

Diane Sanfilippo: Awesome. I feel like it could apply to adults, as well. {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Yes, absolutely. 100%. I had a boss that terrorized me in college; and funny enough, I actually started doing that with her, because I could not find any other way that working, I really did start responding to her in that way as if she were a completely normal human and her behavior was acceptable, and somehow it really improved the relationship and I ended up having a pretty good experience there, so yeah. It’s applicable to a lot of things.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, that’s it for this week. You can find me, Liz, at and you can find Diane at Join our email lists for free goodies and updates that you don’t find anywhere else on our website or on the podcast. While you’re on the internet, leave us an iTunes review. See you next week.

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