Balanced Bites Podcast: Episode #4: Heavy Cream, Fish Calming to the Mind, Healthy Fats, Coffee/Caffeine Paleo, Anorexia & Low Carb High Fat Paleo

Diane & Liz have a discussion of fats & oils, proper oils for cooking and why, irrelevance of smoke point to a degree, rancid oils, trans-fats and Omega 3 supplementation. [6:20]

Topics: 

1: Heavy cream/fish calming to the mind. [30:32] 2: Incorporating more healthy fats for a picky-eater child. [32:50] 3: Coffee/Caffeine and Paleo [41:50] 4: Anorexia & Low-Carb High-Fat Paleo [55:35]

Note: The episodes are now available in iTunes as well and we'll work on other feed services soon! Until then, the RSS feed link is available from the Blog Talk Radio page here. We're using the “Notes” after each question to link to any relevant/additional information or items we mention in our responses on the podcast and say we'll link to, but those are not anywhere near the extent of the answers we're supplying… just so you're clear on that!

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Diane & Liz have a discussion of fats & oils, proper oils for cooking and why, irrelevance of smoke point to a degree, rancid oils, trans-fats and Omega 3 supplementation. [6:20]

• Notes: Ranking of Common Cooking Fats (Balanced Bites Chart in this post), Dr. Kurt Harris: archevore.com, Chris Kresser: ChrisKresser.com, Chris Masterjohn: Cholesterol-and-health.com
• Books referenced: “Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill” and “Know Your Fats”
• Products: Coconut Oil, PureIndianFoods.com Grassfed Ghee;
• WildernessFamilyNaturals.com soybean-oil-free mayo

#1 Heavy cream/fish calming to the mind.

Niko asks: Why does heavy cream or fish balance my spirits when I’m totally stressed in mind and loss of orientation? When I’m feel very confused and I eat fish or heavy cream or similar I get balanced in mind.

• Notes: Nora Gedgaudas, “Primal Body, Primal Mind.”

#2: Incorporating more healthy fats for a picky-eater child.

Amy asks: First, thanks for the great website! I have been following Everyday Paleo and Robb Wolf for a while now, but stumbled across your site yesterday and I just love it! I listened to your first two podcasts in one sitting today 🙂

• Notes: RealMilk.com

#3: Coffee/Caffeine and Paleo

LIZ WOLFE: Hey everybody, I'm Liz Wolfe, sidecast [laughs] sidecast.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Diane gave up coffee, and I-apparently, I'm drunk, so welcome, first time listeners to the Balanced Bites podcast. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome.

LIZ WOLFE: I'm Liz. That's Diane Sanfilippo of Balanced Bites. Welcome. Diane, what's happening?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hey, hey. I just think it's funny because it's such a hot topic to think about: coffee and caffeine in the whole little Paleo-sphere. I must have quit coffee, I don't even know how many times in the last several years. And somehow it creeps back into my life. [laughs] Like every time, it creeps back. I don't know how it happens. I think it happens either when I'm on vacation or I'm away from home, and I just want to enjoy some coffee because I love it.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And then I find myself dependent on it again. And so yeah. Took a nice little nap this afternoon, and that's kind of that. So how are you?

LIZ WOLFE: Nice.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: How are you?

LIZ WOLFE: I'm awesome. Yeah, definitely. Definitely a good start I think to podcast number 4.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Especially-hopefully, people aren't just starting to listen right now, but, if they are, well, I don't know. Maybe this will be a benchmark episode. We'll see.

LIZ WOLFE: I think so. A turning point.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So…yeah.[laughs] So this weekend was really fun.

LIZ WOLFE: It was fun. We'll have to hang out. Eat some bone marrow with some cool people.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, yeah, that was cool, down in Philly. I was teaching over at Crossfit Center City, had a really good time with the folks there, and…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, they're awesome.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And that was on Saturday. Yeah, and Erin Davidson who owns the place was just really awesome and invited me to come do a workout the next day. Did a little Crossfit Total, and yeah, it was really fun to just kind of lift really heavy things with everyone down there. That was cool.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome to be able to eat and hang out with you, and also Stacy from Paleo Parents. That was really fun.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Just to kind of put faces with names and kind of get people in person who we're used to kind of tweeting with and Facebooking with. So yeah, that was cool. And let's see. What else as far as I want to update people on? October first I have a seminar-it's about-I would say it's about a 90 minute drive from San Francisco. I'll be headed there, obviously right from San Francisco, but in Manteca, California, at Crossfit Excel. So again, it's October first. It should roughly be a 9 to 5 seminar. It starts at 9. It'll probably go to about 5, though it may end a little sooner. And then again, in Saddlebrook in northern New Jersey at Crossfit ACT November 12th. Another seminar, same deal. 9 AM to 5ish.

LIZ WOLFE: Another awesome Crossfit affiliate. Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, yeah. You're friends with those guys, right?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Elizabeth up there who owns-one of the owners. Cool. So what's going on? What's news with you?

LIZ WOLFE: You know? Not a whole lot. You know, Vampire Diaries kicked off season 3 last week, so that's been a great source of excitement. Haley from Primal Palate-we're both big fans, so if that doesn't degrade your opinion of me, I don't know what will. Oh well.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I have to say I've not read or watched any vampire-related media, so…

LIZ WOLFE: Oh my God. Oh God.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I've never done it.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] There's just so much for you to catch up on, Diane. I'll get you on the phone here tomorrow, and just let you know.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay.

LIZ WOLFE: I mean, we'll run through the gamut from Edward to Elena and you know, we'll fill you in on everything because it's very important to know these things.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: All right.

LIZ WOLFE: Let's see, what else? I'm looking for somebody who can arrange an introduction with Tina Fey. I've decided that that's going to be very important to us to get to her before Alec Baldwin gets to her and converts her to the veganism.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Okay, that sounds good.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] Yeah. Other than that, I just-I wrote a little blog post on this today. I was just featured as a quote unquote expert in OK Magazine, referencing babies as vegetarians, so that was very exciting. And other than that, it was my birthday.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Woo hoo!

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, woo hoo! Happy birthday to me.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, love that. And I love the OK Magazine feature, you know. Way to get your name and potentially mine by dragging it in there, having somebody check out some links into a fine establishment of a publication. [laughs] I'm really-no. I'm actually really excited. When I saw the post, of course I linked to it from my little Facebook page there. But I said that and said, “That is so cool!” [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: It was funny like it was a pretty-it was a trip, that's for sure.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Whatever.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: You've arrived. You've really arrived. I'm kind of jealous. So yeah, awesome, to be associated with you.

LIZ WOLFE: So one day, six months from now, someone will go to the nail salon to get their toes done, and they'll find an old, you know, issue of OK Magazine…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: And flip through it and see me in there.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Awesome.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. That's usually where I see it. [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Cool. All right, so maybe we'll talk about things that people want to hear about.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, why not?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: All right, well so, one of the things, like we've got some questions lined up, but one of the things I just wanted to touch on before we jump into questions or just kind of a sweeping topic that has been topic of mine especially this week are fats and -this is something that I just actually put up a blog post about this week. A frequently asked question that I get about what are healthy or safe cooking fats and I think people just get really confused. You're out there, you're reading labels on bottles and jars and trying to understand what these products are telling you is safe, but really without much bearing-without much guidance or direction. That's why I wanted to put that post out, and this is something too that I've updated what I'm talking about in my seminar to try and help people understand how to judge or choose a fat to cook with, to be able to take this guide that I've created. I put it in the blog post, it's a way to rank your cooking fats, where what you do is. You look at the breakdown, which you can usually find something like this on Wikipedia or if you have a copy of Know Your Fats, or Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill. I use different resources, but I actually don't have it at my fingertips right now as I'm doing some traveling, but as soon as I get back to my apartment, I'll be able to update that-update the chart a little bit further on some more fats if I want to add them in there. But what I want people to do is kind of take a look at that chart, and then whichever fat or oil they might come across, take a look at what percentage of saturated fatty acids are, what the monounsaturated and the polyunsaturated, and kind of plug them or line them up in how it would fit into the chart. And basically, the way that they're ranked is whichever fat is the most saturated is going toward the top of the chart, and…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: the next level ranking is the higher level of monounsaturated fatty acids, and then polyunsaturated fatty acids. So the reasoning behind that is that saturated fats are the most stable, so often, people are looking at on a bottle of oil, it says, you know, recommended for high heat/high smoke point, right? That's probably something that you've seen a lot, right?

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And I'm guessing you get this question a lot from clients, too, right?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I love to hear that.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: People see these liquid oils…Cool. So people see these liquid oils, and the reason they make these things, too, is partially, once I learned and mastered something, I just get the question over and over again, and I'm like well, what can I do to make this easier for people to understand visually? Just to have a quick reference? So this idea of smoke point is a little bit confusing because it's supposed to be the point at which the fat or oil, typically it's more like the oils that are breaking down or oxidizing where their chemical structure is changing. So visibly, you can see this when you watch olive oil for the most part in a hot pan, but really any other liquid oils you would put into a hot pan, and there's a point at which it starts to smoke.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: A lot of people think what means it's ready. I mean, you hear that a lot-it's on the Food Network, and it makes me nuts. Like oh, that means it's ready. No, that actually means it's damaged. This can happen with something like coconut oil even, if it gets too hot. And if I ever put some oil in the pan and walk away, and forget that I'm heating it up, and I see it start to smoke like that, I usually dump it out and start over again.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But what's happening is that the chemical structure of the fat is damaged, is changed, and that's when the fat is no longer the healthiest to consume, and while a lot of these liquid seed oils might have a higher smoke point, which means it might take a higher temperature, it's so much more of a delicate fat or oil that it's already, for the most part, it's already been damaged by the time it gets into that bottle. So if you look at something that's more saturated like lard or butte, or even ghee, which isn't on the chart, but it's very close to butter, and its breakdown, it's very difficult to damage those fats.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's very difficult to damage coconut oil, for example. You can leave coconut oil in the jar, first of all , you can leave it out on the counter without a cap on it if you wanted to. But I mean, usually, we're trying to keep stuff out of it, but you could leave it open for awhile. Weeks on end, probably. Never smell any change in that oil. If you were to do the same thing with a vegetable oil, left on the counter, open, for a couple of weeks, you'd probably start to notice that it smells rancid. And that's the change in the fatty acid structure and it's making that oil go off. Once it becomes damaged, it's no longer healthy for us to consume. So that's kind of one side of the coin. The other side is, when seed oils are made, the fact that most of them, most of them are so high in some level of omega-6 or omega-3 fatty acids, that just the production process alone is damaging the fats.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So typically they're put through an expeller processing, which I put the video up. It's a very matter-of-fact video on how canola oil is made, and the guy who's narrating it, it's not his purpose at all to make you think canola oil is bad. So he passes out how it's very high in heart healthy omega-3s, blah blah blah, but what he isn't pointing out is that we don't like to cook in omega-3 fats in a pan like that. You would never dump fish oil in a pan, and then try and cook something in it, right?

LIZ WOLFE: Right.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So it's like, this whole-the whole idea that just because something has essential fatty acids, it makes it a healthy oil is really a moot point, when you get these seed oils that have been refined, they're put into bottles and jars, and really to get them into that, you know, into that bottle in the first place, the seeds have gone through so much processing; they've been expeller-pressed, they've been degummed, they've been bleached, deodorized, recolored, dyed, whatever. Watch that whole video and you can see every step. I've also gone over these steps in my post about canola oil on the blog when it used to be a Paleo Diet approved oil.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think Cordain has kind of withdrawn that, but the post remains, when I wrote it, when the original Paleo Diet was out. So essentially you've got, not only a highly refined, highly processed oil, so just the fact that it has to go through so much before it gets to your table, well, it's like, is that even food, right? That's the most commonsense question. And then the fact that you're already getting a damaged oil, when it's just sitting in the jar first and foremost. Canola, corn oil, soybean oil. Anything vegetable oil Any seed oils, really. And I did read some information, and I saw it in one link. I was just doing a little bit of research, that you can even get up to 4% of that-that fat could be turned into trans fat by the time it's bottled, just by those heating and extraction processes.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: They're not labeled that way, but I don't know what the deal is around that labeling. You're probably familiar with this stuff, too, after, you know, I'm sure the Weston A. Price Foundation and your education, I mean. They're huge on trans fats and seed oils being pretty much the devil.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs] Yeah. Well, anyway…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: One thing about…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, go ahead, are you-are you there? Oh, shoot.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. No, I was just going to say the point of it is like, look, take this chart, plug in your fat or oil, rank
it based on its fatty acid composition. If you've got two that are really, really similar, rank those within that based on their smoke points. Say you've got two that are really close in saturated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated breakdown, whichever one has the higher smoke point might be a better choice for cooking. That's really all it's there for. I honestly don't even think about smoke point myself in my cooking. I don't even use unsaturated fats at all for cooking. I don't use olive oil for cooking. I know a lot of other very science-oriented Paleo people don't use liquid oils for cooking if we even eat them at all. So that's kind of-that's that. Sorry. I'm going to let you talk. [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: No, you're good. I actually dropped out for a second there. I'm glad I didn't lose you entirely. I was going to say what you were going to say about the trans fats, you know, the potential for them to be certain seed oils to have trans fatty acid content. This is why you need to be really wary of, or one needs to be really wary of products that contain soybean oil or partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or some conventional mayonnaise. A lot of salad dressings. Things that you might are acceptable toppers for salad or things that fall into a kind of Atkins-type or Paleoish plan. Anytime you see soybean oil, cottonseed oil, partially hydrogenated anything, you can safely-I think it's a safe assumption to think that there are-there is trans fatty acid content. So you know, I think that's something that is a really good selling point at the very least for improving food quality for people that don't even necessarily buy into the Paleo way of life.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Whether or not my parents are going to eat hardboiled eggs with Miracle Whip or mayonnaise isn't going to be influenced by the fact that I think they should go Paleo, but I let them know that anything with partially hydrogenated or soybean oil or whatever in it is probably going to contain trans fats. Well, that's just common knowledge at this point that's that no good, so…well, there's that.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point, too. It's a good way to just avoid unhealthy foods like-I've been doing the thing, too, where what we do is prioritize some of these ideas around like what's Paleo, what's just a general for health in terms of like what choices we make, what to avoid. And the first thing I tell people, well obviously, is eat whole foods.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Because when you eat whole foods, you avoid most of this stuff anyway, right? Like you're probably not going to run into too many seed oils. Obviously, we've got whole olives, whole macadamia, you know, nuts, whole avocados, that type of thing.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But we're really going to avoid a lot of these from just by eating whole foods. But then, kind of the second part of it. I put avoiding things like gluten and seed oils, really at the very top of that list. Even above things like sugar or artificial sweeteners because if you're eating a whole food, you know, you're already going to be avoiding added sugars. You know, maybe there's fruit, something like that.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But for the most part, we just kind of already have that done. So the seed oil-now this is stuff that, you know, some much more science-oriented guys like Chris Masterjohn talk about and Chris Kresser and Kurt Harris…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: They all kind of talk about the problems with fats being related to potentially to cholesterol levels or to heart disease, and it's really not about like this fat or that fat, but the idea that really eating damaged fats is the worst thing we can do.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Regardless, even if-whether it is saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated, it's just a matter of damaged fats, and the fact is that polyunsaturated are the most susceptible to damage. Very easy to damage. That's why we do things like put fish oil in the fridge or the freezer, because we're trying to keep those protected and I personally would rather not take that risk. I personally would just rather cook with the saturated fat and kind of go from there.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So I just think it's easier,. I don't know how hot their pans getting. Olive oil is one that people ask me all the time, and everybody wants to cook with olive oil. Like, I don't know, I get it. I used to cook with olive oil back in the day, and I'm not really attached to it. Like I just think, if you know it's maybe not the best thing to do, and you could be damaging it, I don't know, just use something different. Use a saturated fat. That's what I do for all of my cooking. If I want to use olive oil, I put it on something that's finished cooking already.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Salad or just to kind of finish something. For the most part, you kind of-you know you ruin the taste of a good live oil if you cook it. And that's part of that damage that's happening. So I mean, I try not to eat too much of it anyway because I don't want too much omega-6 coming in, but you know it's pretty tasty and I have some of it from a friend who has an olive-an olive plantation in her family. Her family has olives in Greece so I'm like this is delicious, I'm going to eat it, but Yeah, other than that.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, take a shot of that stuff.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. I mean, I've even cut back on my avocados lately kind of because I realized in doing a bunch of research, you know, some of that stuff is really high in omega-6. Poultry, pork, all really high in omega-6. So I don't know. I've got a couple more things I want to talk about with the omega-3/6 stuff, but anything else in the cooking fats. Do you cook with olive oil?

LIZ WOLFE: I don't. I don't. I've actually gotten some olive oil from Anthony which I think is who you're talking about with the Philadelphia…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: buddy who's got the olive grove or whatever you want to call it and it's delicious. I probably would not tend to cook with it. I generally-I'll cook with some lard that I rendered at home, I'll cook with some ghee. My absolute favorite ghee is from a business located up in Princeton, New Jersey, and it's Pure Indian Foods, and they ship. The ghee is great!

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm.

LIZ WOLFE: And I cook with coconut oil. That's pretty much it.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Cool. Yeah, that's pretty much what I do, too. Yeah, I can't really think of more that I tend to use regularly.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So then the other thing that I just want to talk about quickly because I get questions about this stuff, and you know, I think people are probably aware that we listen to all of the other Paleo podcasts out there that are just this kind of health-oriented stuff. I tend to get questions, just kind of general population just trying to make sense of some of the science. And I think it can be a bit confusing. I'm happy to kind of clarify it and make things a bit more accessible. So one of the things that I was listening to this past week was Robb Wolf's Paleo Solution podcast where he had Dr. Kurt Harris on, and towards the end of the podcast they were talking about omega-3 supplementation. And kind of the general consensus that they both came to was that you know, for most people, a low dose of supplementation, if any, was all that made sense to recommend. And low dose being 2 to 4 grams a day. 4 grams being on the high side in maybe a bigger person. 2 grams being toward the low side, and for a lot of you, I think that's going to sound different or low or new. But generally also trying to get a few servings of fish in a week.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: It's not always very affordable, but I like to recommend that people try stuff like the wild salmon, wild canned salmon, either from Costco or Trader Joe's, and I think that, you know, you've got a lot of these friends who are becoming more aware of the BPA situation, the plastic and the lining of the cans, and I've heard that Traer Joe's single ingredient foods like coconut milk or salmon do have BPA free cans. But I think that getting those omega-3 fats in through our food is really important. So I think what they were trying to explain in the rationale behind this, that from my understanding, and what I'd like to explain to people to get them to understand is that the idea of trying to saturate your body or your cells or your tissues with a higher dose of omega-3 fats in a supplement. At first, it seems like a good idea, and it seems like it's for a noble cause to just really actively reduce inflammation. I think that the fact is that your cells can't turn over their fatty acid composition that quickly…

LIZ WOLFE:Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So you're kind of flooding your system with these fats that your body won't really do much with. I don't know that you can really undo years of damage in matter of weeks or months. So while it seems nice, I think it's just more a matter of the consistent intake that is extremely reduced omega-6 fats, which we're going to go really far to do that with omitting the seed oils, omitting the grains, and legumes, which are high in omega-6, potentially really watching our nut intake, which I really don't. I don't eat nuts as any regular part of my diet. I might have them a few times a week, just intermittently as they come across my, you know, across my plate, but it's not something I plan.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Same thing with avocados, potentially watching that. Not going crazy with it, but just not necessarily chugging the stuff like crazy all the time. Same thing with poultry and pork products, like having them a couple times a week, fine, but every single day, and we might be overdoing it, so. Really more a matter of just drastically cutting our omega-6 intake, and then making sure we're getting a decent amount of omega-3s, and allowing our body to rebalance. We can't really, effectively, just saturate our body with this supplement and expect it to sort of stick, like we can't expect ourselves to take all that in, The change out process really doesn't happen all that quickly, or they probably just-I don't know the entire biochemical situation, but I just don't think they can accept all of that in. It's probably a waste of money at some point. What's-I mean, did you-I know you probably haven't finished hearing all of it, but just kind of based on that, does it make sense to you on just kind of a practical side?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, it does. I think the kind of instinct with the availability of supplements like that is to feel like, let's do as much, you know, reversal, as much as we possibly can as quickly as we possibly can and I think you kind of touched on the key-the underlying theme is just patience and like you said, a lot of things just can't be undone that quickly, and it would be, I think, probably a little ridiculous of us to assume that it could. You really just can't fool nature for the most part. So that's where I come down on that. The more I learn, the more I just kind of feel like patience in a whole foods approach is really the best strategy. Some people may need a little extra support here and there , and that's cool. I mean there are plenty of supraphysiological situations, like say, Crossfit exercise that may demand something in the way of fractionated foods, like you know, [xxx 26:19], maybe a protein shake here and there. I mean, it really is a cost benefit thing. But I think generally like the underlying foundation to all of this is really patience and maybe a little self-experimentation.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I think that's a good point too on the potentially, oh you know, the athletes who are more like the hard charging athletes, the games competitors, those kinds of people who are not most people, so recognizing that if that's not you, you're probably not the person who needs protein shakes, you're probably not the person who needs, you know, additional anti-inflammatory fats to help kind of make this process work a little faster. That said, too, when we're taking in a supplemental form and we might be potentially taking too much, you know, the idea is always about balance. So if we're pushing our anti-inflammatory response a little too high, you know, that's not good either. We need…

LIZ WOLFE: Right.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: inflammation to heal things. It's just that most of us are overloaded with it. And I think people can almost underestimate how much their diet can really do. Part of this, too, is underestimating how much dining out might not be the best idea. I think it's awesome and social, and you try new things, and you taste amazing food, but you can pretty much guarantee that unless you know that restaurant cooks in butter, they're cooking in vegetable oils.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And so you're getting this oxidized oil, You're probably getting oxidized, high levels of polyunsaturated fatty acids, even when people see their beloved sweet potato fries on the menu, and they get so excited, oh, it's Paleo, I can eat sweet potato fries. It's like well, it's probably fried in soybean oil. So party pooper, but it's like…

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: you're getting something that's not even healthy at all at that point, so it's a tough one, and not something that people should be shut in about, and like never go out to eat, but just recognizing that these fats are really kind of, I think, at the crux of what's creating either health or unwellness for people. It's just the first thing that I like people to prioritize, and you know, from there we can kind of go on down a million different pathways of what's kind of changed in our diet, but the fats really seem to be a huge one. I don't know. If people want to do some research on, you know, the PUFA, the polyunsaturated fatty acid consumption in this country vs. like saturated fats, and see what's happened with consumption of those fats and also what's happened with the rates of heart disease, you can see some pretty striking , striking differences in consumption along with that increase in heart disease. So I wouldn't want to blame traditional fats. I'm definitely a pro-saturated fats girl. [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely. And I do know an adequate saturated fat intake in the diet, saturated fat intake, that is, actually decreases our physiological need for like for excess polyunsaturateds, and I probably just explained that wrong, but that's kind of a Weston A. Price thing.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Hmm. Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: So I think that's probably the current demonization of saturated fats over time.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: So there you go.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, I'm definitely not an expert on those, but I've some stuff too on people in general. I know Kurt Harris talks about this, just generally reducing overall PUFA consumption, like…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: in general, we don't need to be focused on trying to get them. They'll be in there, so. Cool.

LIZ WOLFE: And I also think eating a lot of bacon as often as possible is a really good strategy for overall happiness, so that's just my two cents on bacon.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] I'm really on the pro-happiness factor.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, me too. I think that's the third component here.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Fat, something else, and bacon.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: All right, so let's get into a question here. Niko from Germany asks: “Why does heavy cream or fish balance my spirits when I’m totally stressed in mind and experiencing loss of orientation? When I’m very confused” I think a little of this is getting lost in translation here-” when I'm feeling very confused and I eat fish or heavy cream or something similar I get balanced in mind.” And you know, this just reminds me of something that Nora Gedgaudas says a lot. I've seen her speak a few times since she says, basically, there's nothing more stabilizing to the brain than dietary fat, and to me, that's kind of what this looks like. What do you think, Diane?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, and I think like kind of one of the reasons we wanted to take this one now is just talking about fats and on the heels of the whole like fatty acid question. I think just getting that fatty acid balance back into place or just, I don't know, just nourishing your brain in that way. Seems to make sense to me, you know. So this is somebody who perhaps a very low dose of that omega-3, even if it's like 1 gram a day. Something that's just a regular intake of getting something in, even if he's not eating the fish regularly. I don't know, you know he's talking about it as if, and I don't know if this is a he or a she, actually. Niko, who knows? I don't know.

LIZ WOLFE: Nn-mm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Just talking about you know, fish can be cost prohibitive, but if your mind is feeling a little bit off, then you really just want to help yourself out, or like a butter oil supplement could be nice, or just cooking with the stuff. Cooking with some butter a little more often. Just kind of get that in. But I would say, you know, if you feel good eating those foods, try and eat them regularly. That's my basic take on that.

LIZ WOLFE: Absolutely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: I like the self-awareness. I like that.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. It's definitely an interesting one. Fish or heavy cream. But definitely both point to fat. I think we both kind of picked up that one right away, the way it's definitely a fat issue, so.

LIZ WOLFE: All right. Next, Amy from Austin, Texas asks. Well, first she says. “First, thanks for the great website!” I'm assuming she's referring to your website, Diane, because mine is a crazy rambling mess.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Well, she submitted it through mine, so I'm guessing. [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: There you go. [laughs] All right. ” I have been following Everyday Paleo and Robb Wolf for a while now, but stumbled across your site yesterday and I just love it! I listened to your first two podcasts in one sitting today.” That's awesome. Thank you, Amy. “My question is about getting healthy fats into my avocado-, coconut-, nut-hating son. I have four kids (14 year old girl, 11 year old boy, 9 year old girl, and 22 month old girl).”

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Phew!

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. “and for the last 4 years” Wowza. “I was an ovo-lacto vegetarian. I cooked mainly vegetarian meals for the family, and added in some form of meat a couple of times a week for the husband and older kids. I realized vegetarianism was making me (and my family) very unhealthy, so I made the switch to Paleo about a month ago. I am totally loving it! The husband and the girls are all happy, but my son… not so much. He is a carb-addict like I was and is still a little upset with me for taking away his bread and brownies. I am lucky enough to be able to find local sources of pastured beef and free-range chicken and eggs. I cook with coconut oil and add it — and flaxseed oil– to our coconut milk fruit smoothies. The girls all eat almond butter, nuts, and avocados. My son loves the meat and eggs aspect of the Paleo lifestyle, and he is putting up with the added vegetables, but I am worried that he is not getting enough fat. So, how can I incorporate more healthy fats into his diet? Should I try sneaking avocados in to his smoothies? Do you think he is getting enough just through limited consumption of coconut oil, eating pastured and free-range meats, and eggs? Thanks for all your great wisdom!” Go for it, Diane.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Phew. Well, I mean as long as a question as that is, it's really good to have that much detail. So for those of you who want to submit questions, giving us the background and kind of exactly what's going on is always really helpful, because often we're left with more questions than answers. So the first thing that I notice from this question that I would actually tell Amy to nix, is that she's adding that flaxseed oil to the smoothies, and I would just get rid of that. I don't really see much benefit coming from that. The type of omega-3 fatty acid needs to go through a lot of conversion before it becomes usable to our bodies. So I've heard of, if you're. If he's not eating any fish, and you're concerned about that kind of fat for him, I know that there are some DHA supplements for kids, that you know, I was just talking about taking omega-3 supplements, but you haven't mentioned if he eats fish or not, so I will put this out there. I think there are some like really palatable ones for little kids.

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: But it seems, I know Chrissy Gower from Growing Up Paleo, she gives her little son, Kayden, these little pellets of omega-3 supplement now just whenever she remembers. I don't think it's like a crazy, religious thing, but he just eats it. I think it's tasty or it's got some kind of flavoring to it, so I'd recommend that over the flaxseed oil if you're concerned about that for him. Especially, too, it sounds like if you weren't getting a ton of this stuff before, a ton of fats before or animal protein, you know, I see why you might want to get some of that back in. But as far as-so I would get rid of that, but as far like what everyone's eating. I know your main concern if your little boy. I think that I would recommend everyone in general around the house there, is rotating some of what you've mentioned what the girls are eating, the almond butter, nuts, avocado, we just talked about how that stuff is really high in omega-6. It's healthy whole food, it's great to feed them that. Better than feeding them bread and pasta and cookies, and all those other snack-y foods. I would just try and get them other rotations going on. Maybe some coconut flakes, coconut butter. Those don't have any polyunsaturated fatty acids or very, very little, mostly saturated. And they can be a really welcome change to the flakes or that coconut butter. You can even blend almond butter halfway with coconut butter, so that they're getting a little but less of that omega-6 at the same time. And even in slipping in some walnuts or pecans, that kind of thing. So that's one thing I would just recommend what everyone's eating. Like macadamia nuts, that kind of thing. But is your son getting enough fat? My gut response on this is that he's probably getting enough fat. You're feeding him whole foods, you're feeding him whole eggs. You know, the meat and poultry that you're feeding him has fat in it. I definitely think, you know, if he's getting it where it naturally is, where it naturally occurs, and you're adding the coconut oil, he's probably fine. I think most kids who are eating whole food are going to get enough from the food. The smoothies, are you using full fat coconut milk? Plenty of good fat in there. I think that we don't necessarily need to add tons of other fat if he's just getting it, and you're not trying to keep it out of his diet. I think, you know, a common misconception around this is just that the conventional old, old wisdom is just low fat, high carb, blah, blah, blah. Feed them low fat foods and you're not doing that, so I wouldn't really be too concerned. If he does show signs of any fatty acid deficiencies because it seems like brain development is a little off, and it seems like his skin is dry, okay. His nails are weak, anything that seems like, you can kind of Google for some more signs and symptoms of fatty acid deficiencies, unless Liz has stuff she wants to throw in. But you look up that stuff up, and if he is experiencing any of that, sure, see about getting some more in. I think coconut butter is kind of a good source and it's usually pretty tasty. And then the last idea I have is just a way to kind of make his veggies more palatable, if he seems like he's not thrilled about vegetables, but also to get a double whammy of getting more fat in is to use some grass-fed butter, and either steam your veggies with the grass-fed butter , or just melt the butter and just toss the veggies in there to roast, like butternut squash or even, if you're making sweet potato fries, toss them in butter ahead of time or ghee or lard. Any of the fats we've been talking about for cooking, which I think would taste amazing.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: That's-those are my thoughts on getting fats in. How about you?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, I agree with you. I'm thinking-right now I'm trying to looking something up on the Internet here as to whether raw milk is legal in Texas. I'm not 100% sure about that. But I don't know. You know, I know it's not Paleo or whatever, but I do think there is room in a healthy diet, especially for growing kids, for something like raw, full fat cream or like raw, full fat yogurt, but especially if you're doing smoothies, you might want to mix a little bit of that in, just to get kind of a variety of fatty acids into the diet. Grass-fed raw butter, you know, with the conjugated linoleic acid, I think is great. So if that was something you wanted to explore , just to push a different variety of fatty acids, I think that would be cool. If you're not comfortable with that, if you feel like, for example, like when I was little I had some eczema and stuff like that which all resolved when I eliminated dairy. However, I've never had a problem since with the incorporation of raw dairy, so that's kind of a real individual thing, but possibly worth looking into. The website I'd send you to is RealMilk.com, you can find some information in there, but that's pretty much all I would add.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Mm-hmm. Cool. I'm definitely a fan of raw milk. It's definitely a point of contention amongst some people, but I think if you can get quality raw milk, it's a whole , live food, and kids usually like to drink it, and you know, I wouldn't make it the basis of their entire diet…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: because they can get a little crazy with it, I think, just like, ahh, give me my milk all the time, and not eating…

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: but I think, definitely, I'm a fan. I mean, I've seen some robust looking kids who were raised on raw milk. And that kind of sells it for me. Again, I mean, not to harp on it, but she was vegetarian for a long time, and you know, ovo-lacto, so that just basically means, egg and cheese, not even, I don't know if she was eating fish . I don't-I don't really know what else that might mean, but you know, if we're missing anything, I think it's good to kind of get as much nutrient-dense food as possible.

LIZ WOLFE: Yup.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Cool.

LIZ WOLFE: All right.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: What about..

LIZ WOLFE: Let's see. Do we have time for..?

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, we have time for a couple more questions here.

LIZ WOLFE: Let's tackle this one from Patrick.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Or do you want to tackle…You know what, I think we should tackle the coffee question just in case we don't get to it today because I think it bears on our podcast today.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. Okay, yeah. Go for it.

LIZ WOLFE: All right. Jami from Arkansas asks: ”Where, if anywhere does coffee/caffeine fit in the Paleo world? How to break the addiction?? Especially if it relieves one’s constipation? Inquiring minds want to know…” I'll let you jump in on that, Diane,, since you're in coffee detox right now.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay. Yeah. [sigh] Like, even to the point that I know friends are like, wait, you started drinking coffee again? When did that happen? I'm like ahh, give me a break! It happens all the time. Oh, okay. my take on this coffee thing situation, regardless of Paleo/not Paleo, whatever. My thoughts are that it is kind of like any other additive substance. You have to ask yourself some questions about it. You know, do you need it to maintain a normal level of function on a daily basis? You know, in this case, it sounds like, even if she doesn't need it for energy, if she needs to coffee to trigger peristalsis or digestive motility, which is common, it's not an ideal situation. So if you're relying on it for that, I would revisit the situation. If you're addicted, meaning a day without it would mean you would really deal noticeably different, like you've got headaches, fatigue, foggy head, other symptoms like maybe some constipation, and you have some health goals that you're not reaching at that time. This could include anything like looking for some fat loss, strength improvements, increasing your energy, getting your digestion regulated. If you've got something going on, and you're drinking coffee, and you feel differently if you don't drink it one day, it might be time to consider breaking that addiction. How to break the addiction? Well, it definitely depends on how much of it you drink at a time. My best advice is just to do it slowly; it depends on how much you take in. But you know, for example, if you take in two 16 oz cups of coffee a day, that's really equivalent to what we could call 4 cups of coffee, a cup being around 8 ounces. Sometimes I've seen a cup serving of coffee at around 6 ounces, although, you know, fluid cup is 8. That's 4 cups. If you're currently drinking 4 cups of coffee a day, you know, maybe for the first week, you cut it down to 3. Or maybe you cut it down to 2 of caffeinated, 2 of decaf. You really have to go based on how strongly you think your addiction is affecting you. I personally find that it only takes me a few days of not drinking it to feel okay. I don't normally drink more than around 8-10 ounces equivalent of caffeine or coffee a day. An Americano, like a medium Americano from Starbucks has a few shots of espresso, that's equal to around like a cup and a half of coffee. So I've done a lot of research on how much caffeine is in different beverages. [laughs] And so you really have to look at that. You have to look at what is my current caffeine consumption. How painful is it for me if I don't have it, and just working from there. So when I work with clients on this, you know, I kind of ask them, like what do you think you can handle? You know, and kind of go from there. And then just continue to take it down until the point where you either just are drinking decaf which still does have caffeine in it. Like you really don't want to give up that drink, at least getting to decaf, although there can be some issues of some chemicals in how the coffee is decaffeinated, but it's still going a long way. Getting down to that or even getting over to some teas, which might still have caffeine again, but be less. These are all different ways to just titrate down over a period of time. It only takes me a few days over to a week to get myself down, but it might take someone else a month to really get there or even longer. During the process, I definitely think being able to nap as frequently as possible is definitely a bonus.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: You know, as someone who is self-employed…

LIZ WOLFE: and can just check out…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: and what else…What?

LIZ WOLFE: You just-your success depends on your ability to just completely check out of the world for as long as possible.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, maybe you work at a desk and you put your head down. I'm just kidding. No seriously, maybe you need to like go out to your car and take a nap or if you just need to say, hey, I'm-just- I don't even know what people need to tell their bosses. It's like I don't have a boss. I can't really handle real working people.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So whatever you need to do to take care of yourself. I know I had someone on the Facebook page recently who was like, oh, well, I'm self-employed, so I can handle that. And I'm like, great. Go for it. go take a nap. Like when you feel tired, because you haven't had caffeine, go take a nap. I think it's one of the best things you can do. I did it before recording this podcast and I feel quite chipper now. So that's my take on really like helping you through. Tons of water, herbal teas can be helpful. One herbal tea that I like is a licorice root tea. You can drink that kind of in the earlier part of the day. It tends to extend the half-life of cortisol in your blood stream, so essentially whatever kick your body has naturally of your own cortisol production, it'll help that kind of linger for longer, so it might feel a little like you're drinking caffeine even if you're not. So that can be helpful for a period of time. I wouldn't drink licorice root tea forever and ever, but it can just be really helpful and pretty tasty. That's that part. And then, the constipation issue is really no joke, like I don't normally have clients like my clients currently who become constipated, but I have often people who come to me to start out with constipation. And if you're constipated, it's like we need to address that, first and foremost because it's not healthy at all. So that needs to be taken care of, and I don't know. I would definitely try and take care of it, maybe even before you come off of the coffee entirely. Like starting to introduce some of the stuff at the same time. I definitely recommend probiotic foods like sauerkraut or kim chee. Just make sure there's not added sugar in that kim chee. get some of those fermented foods in. If you really can't stand the raw sauerkraut, potentially a supplement, a probiotic supplement, there's a lot of different brands out there. you just have to find one that works for you. They all kind of have different makeups, so there's not one that I would say always works for everyone, but just kind of grab one and see what happens with it. And then also, I find that having people make sure they're eating some starchy foods like sweet potatoes, winter squash, even like peeled white potatoes, making sure that your gut flora has something to feed on and then again, I mean, I think we were talking a little bit about the saturated fats and that can create a little bit of some food for some gut flora. But I think that getting a little bit of starchy food as it tends to help people as well. So I would see how that works. I would see how that works, even pushing your coffee consumption a little later in the day and starting to eat those foods and see if you get some motility before you even end up quitting the coffee. But if those are coming in at the same time, quitting the coffee and dealing with the constipation. I would definitely really try and address the constipation aggressively. Liz, did I lose you?

LIZ WOLFE: No.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I was like, oh no! [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: Oh, no. Did I mute you? No, I'm here. Yeah, I like everything you said. One thing that I was-I was researching a blog post for Steve's Original sometime ago about whether or not it was worth trying to the kick coffee habit, just kind of make a recommendation across the board of whether people should or should not drink coffee. And it's so-it's so like individual. As you said, if you're not addicted, if you don't need it to get things moving. You know, literally, if you don't need it to wake up. If you're just enjoying your coffee, see, I think there's some pretty cool properties to it. I think Dr. Eades had talked about how it's one of the only anti-oxidants that we encounter on a reliable, kind of daily basis as coffee drinkers. I thought that was a really interesting statement. But if you are interested in weaning yourself off the coffee, if you do fall into that category, it's kind of fun to try new stuff, like you were saying, the licorice tea. I like some dandelion tea with roasted chicory root. There was a blog post actually at Elana's Pantry. She talks a little bit about that. She provides links to where you can order the roasted dandelion root and the roasted chicory. So that's fun. I try to keep my coffee to before noon. I'm not always successful with that, but I do try and compensate with a lot of water drinking, just because I tend to feel better that way. I'm kind of sensitive to diuretics and coffee is one. When it comes to gastric motility, I totally agree with you, Diane. Like that really is no joke. I'd suggest, you know, I like your recommendation on the probiotic. You could start some [xxx 52:09] in your workplace castle. You could just let people know you're on your way out..

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I just lost you a little bit. You did. I wonder if that was our little recording just kind of like not wanting you to say what.

LIZ WOLFE: Not letting me joke about to smoke cigarettes. Yeah, smoke cigarettes. That'll get your gastric motility going.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I don't even-I never even heard that. That's funny.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah, me either. I don't know where that came from.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: By the way, she's totally kidding. If one day, these podcasts end up transcribed, like, no joke, I've been listening to people's podcasts and sarcasm. I'm like, you guys, sarcasm's not going to translate when this stuff is in writing.

LIZ WOLFE: So true.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs] Right? Like…

LIZ WOLFE: It's so true.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: They're going to have to like, begin sarcasm and end sarcasm notes because people are going to start reading things and…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: and be like, oh, I thought they said I should chug an entire bottle of fish oil, or I should smoke cigarettes for gastric motility.

LIZ WOLFE: Like cigarettes.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: No, we're totally joking.

LIZ WOLFE: Liz is-Liz is joking, and you know, we're going to get-we'll get a host of sound effects and you know, like a real radio show, so when I say stupid stuff like that, it can go wah wah wah, and we'll all know that Liz is not advocating smoking cigarettes, although the only other two things that have ever really helped with my peristalsis-any issues that I've had-is either going to the library or going to Hobby Lobby. That always, always….

DIANE SANFILIPPO: [laughs]

LIZ WOLFE: I'm not kidding.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Oh my God. That's really funny. Yeah, anywhere where the bathroom is really hard to get to potentially…

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. Yeah, I know. Any place quiet

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Something-Yeah. Everyone can hear everything. There was something else that you just said that kind of reminded me, oh yeah, just you know, I'm definitely big on the enjoyment factor. I don't think if you don't have a problem with it. That this is definitely a question of whether you're addicted, here's what I think, like…you know, I don't really have an issue with people drinking coffee regularly. And the one thing we also didn't mention is like if you're sleeping just fine, then if you're not addicted or anything with other problems, then okay. So if you're using it and abusing it to keep you running throughout the day, if you're not sleeping through the night and you drink coffee anytime during the day, it's like you don't know how much that coffee could really affect you, even if you drank it in the morning. It has a pretty long half-life again, so how long this caffeine lives in your bloodstream is pretty long, so I just would-I would play around with it too if you do experience any trouble sleeping. I mean, that's definitely one that I've struggled with in the last couple of years, just like getting long enough, solid enough sleep…

LIZ WOLFE: Mm-hmm.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: and when I get rid of the caffeine, I just tell myself, just close your eyes and go to sleep. [laughs] It's definitely a lot more sound, so it's not something that I like to, you know, that I like to do. I mean, I really enjoy coffee and hopefully, you know, there's a place for it in a healthy balance, but I think that yeah, we all need to kind of address-and it can change, you know, depending on how stressful your life is and kind of what's going on at the time, and it doesn't mean it's for forever. So I'm definitely, definitely a fan of coffee, but I'm not a fan of ill effects from it.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: So yeah, that's kind of it, that's on the coffee. All right, so we have one more. We can take this one. We have some time.

LIZ WOLFE: All right, let's do it. Jami from-no, no, we just did that one. All righty.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think Patrick. Is it Patrick?

LIZ WOLFE: Here we go. So yes, Patrick. Patrick from Sweden asks: “Dear Diane and Liz, I have a friend with anorexia, Doctors say that she must eat carbohydrates and that her fear of carbohydrates is dangerous. She's following a Paleo/Low Carb High Fat diet. Do you have any ideas about this issue? Many thanks, Patrick”

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Okay, so I'm definitely not an expert in anorexia, didn't want to address this one with that kind of overarching idea that you know, I'm an expert on this topic, but, that being said, I do know a little bit about some emotional eating issues, and like my-my gut instinct on this is if she's anorexic and she's eating, I wouldn't really bother her with some of this minutiae. I don't know what low carb high fat means for her, like if it's very low carb or zero carb, or if she's just keeping to a lower carb diet than what her doctor might think is normal, which I don't really know if I care what the doctor thinks is normal necessarily for a carb intake, you know, if they're following a pretty USDA guided recommendation. So yeah, I don't know, I mean, is it zero carb? Is she actually afraid of them? Or is this just her take on like I'm trying to eat a Paleo diet and I know that too much carbohydrate is not the best idea. That said, obviously, you know, there is a point at which starch or carbohydrate that's at a little bit of a higher level might be helpful in improving her mood. We know that some people experience better serotonin production. 95% of your serotonin is made in your gut, so that's some stuff that , you know, if you are getting some more starch or if you are experiencing some mood or anxiety or compulsive or altered eating, you know, it might be helpful to have some starch for that reason. That might be something that she might connect with, rather than the idea that you either need it for calories or some other reason. If she's subscribing to Paleo as an approach, you know, coming from the scientific perspective, that might connect with her. But, again I really would kind of refer to my first point on it. That like, look, if she's eating, I wouldn't really bug her too much on it. I think, you know, the carbohydrates could really help her put some weight back on, if she needs to gain some weight. They can help to motivate a little bit more appetite, but sometimes when people do eat pretty low carb, they don't have too much in appetite, so if she's using the low carb as a way to kind of manipulate her own appetite, that could be dangerous, but I'm not an expert on this stuff, so this might be another question that we kind of address again when we have someone on who's a little bit more in tune with some emotional issues. Maybe we'll ask someone like Emily Deans or something like that, kind of her take, but yeah, my very best response is like, if she's eating, I wouldn't nitpick over it at this point. You know, if she seems to be getting healthy foods , then yeah. Do you have more?

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. No, I like everything that you said. I think, you know, it's kind of hard to tell what we're dealing with, like you said, kind of a manipulation of macronutrients to stay thin, you know, or if we're dealing with doctors that aren't super savvy on the health promoting benefits of the Paleo diet.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Like you said, I think it would be cool to poke around a little bit at EvolutionaryPsychiatry.blogspot.com. I think that's Emily Dean's website.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yup.

LIZ WOLFE: And maybe even look for a physician, I don't know if they're international, but potentially seek a physician within the Paleo Physicians Network. I know they're building-Robb Wolf and I think Cordain are building that up right now, and that might be worth looking at. But yeah, I think you nailed it.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Yeah, we'll link to Emily Dean's blog from the notes, so if anyone needs to get that, they can kind of check that out. She might have some stuff on this, I'm not sure. But yeah.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: I think that's pretty much all the questions we have for today. I did just want to kind of wrap up with a couple of little notes. Thank you to everyone who's been downloading, listening. It seems to be a few more people than just Liz's and my mom. In fact, I'm pretty sure my mom is not listening. I don't think she knows how to download a podcast.

LIZ WOLFE: [laughs]

DIANE SANFILIPPO: The Shuffle, the iPod Shuffle we bought her a few years. Pretty sure it's collecting dust somewhere. I might need to actually take that back and put it into use, but, if you are listening, if you would hop into iTunes, just leave us a review and a rating. That will help us become more visible for people and just help spread the word, so we'd really appreciate some more reviews. And yeah, feel free to post some more comments on the posts that we put up. If you've got some more advice for people, you know, if you've had an experience that's similar to something that we're talking about, feel free to just kind of let people know what your experience has been.

LIZ WOLFE: Definitely.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And absolutely continue to submit-yes, continue to submit questions through the podcast link on BalancedBites.com. Any other notes or things you want to throw out there for people? Know where can I find your OK Magazine? Is it on newsstands now?

LIZ WOLFE: OK Magazine on newsstands now. I don't think I've ever…

DIANE SANFILIPPO: And a salon near you for the next six months to two years. I don't know. I'm just kidding.

LIZ WOLFE: Check it out at CaveGirlEats.com.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Are you on the cover?

LIZ WOLFE: I'm not on the cover.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Damn.

LIZ WOLFE: The cover of OK Magazine I believe it is some sort of Angelina/Jennifer controversy, so be on the lookout for that.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sweet.

LIZ WOLFE: I like it.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Cool.

LIZ WOLFE: Yeah. All right, Diane.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: All right.

LIZ WOLFE: Talk to you next time.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Sounds good.

LIZ WOLFE: All right, bye bye.

DIANE SANFILIPPO: Bye.