Podcast Episode #206: The great FCLO debate

Topics:
1.  What’s new for you from Diane & Liz [3:20] 2.  A new thing I’m into lately: not lifting heavy (gasp!) [12:21] 3.  Response to fermented cod liver oil report [20:08] 4. Approach supplements in general [44:04] 5. #treatyoself: Primal Kitchen Mayo [51:24]

Additional resources:
Chris Kresser's recent post on the topic.
Chris Masterjohn's recent post on the topic.

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Balance Bites: Episode #206: The great FCLO debate 

You’re listening to the Balanced Bites podcast episode 206.

Welcome to the Balanced Bites podcast with Diane Sanfilippo and Liz Wolfe. Diane is a certified nutrition consultant, and the New York Times bestselling author of Practical Paleo, The 21-Day Sugar Detox, and co-author of Mediterranean Paleo Cooking. Liz is a nutritional therapy practitioner, and the best-selling author of Eat the Yolks and The Purely Primal Skincare Guide. Together, Diane and Liz answer your questions, interview leading health and wellness experts, and share their take on modern paleo living with their friendly and balanced approach. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content within this podcast are intended as general information only, and are not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone! Hey, hey, hey, hey everyone! It’s me, Liz. And I’m here with Diane, as usual. What’s up?

Diane Sanfilippo: Hey.

Liz Wolfe: Hey!

Diane Sanfilippo: I am podcasting for the first time in our new digs in SF.

Liz Wolfe: That’s crazy.

Diane Sanfilippo: And it might be a little echoy on my end, not because of an audio situation. Well, totally because of an audio situation. {laughs}, not because of our set up, but because our apartment is still empty for a couple more days until our stuff arrives. And it’s been crazy, like everything echoes all over the place.

Liz Wolfe: So, your studio is not built yet?

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} My sound studio?

Liz Wolfe: Why don’t you have Joe Gorga come and build you a studio? He did that for Melissa, I’m sure he’d do it for you.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’ll call him right up.

Liz Wolfe: You see, I’m in total Housewives withdrawal right now.

Diane Sanfilippo: I was going to say, I’m proud of it, if you’re watching again.

Liz Wolfe: No. I’m not. I try real hard.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I try real hard, but I have a kid that won’t nap past 30 minutes. Somebody, somebody come and tell me how to make a baby take more than a 30-minute nap, because this little thing will go down, and she looks like she is out for the count, and then all of a sudden, like, hey! I’m awake!

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Here I am!

Liz Wolfe: No indication, nothing, just like, what’s up! Let’s play, let’s party.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my goodness. Well I finally got to meet the little nugget.

Liz Wolfe: Yes you did.

Diane Sanfilippo: That was fun.

Liz Wolfe: Should we talk about that after our sponsors?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Ok.

Diane Sanfilippo: Pete’s Paleo is a friend of the Balanced Bites podcast. They’re bacon is insanely delicious, and sugar free, and their premade paleo meals make your life so much easier when everything is getting busy and getting real food on the table is still a top priority, as it should be. Pete’s paleo is now offering a 30-day gut healing kit containing bone broth, gelatin gummies, instant organic soup packs, and an E-cookbook. It’s the perfect complement to any anti-inflammatory diet. Get yours today at guthealingkit.com. Use code GRABACUPPABROTH to get $25 off; that’s an amazing deal. It’s GRABACUPPABROTH, C-U-P-P-A. And you can grab that code any time at BalancedBites.com to just read and make sure you’re typing it in right. You can also use code BALANCEDBITES to get $5 off any of their regular meal plans. Check out PetesPaleo.com today. Pete’s Paleo; bringing fine dining to your cave.

1. What’s new for you from Diane & Liz [3:20]

Liz Wolfe: Ok, so tell me what it was like to meet.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: #mysterybabyWolfebaby.

Diane Sanfilippo: With an E.

Liz Wolfe: With an E.

Diane Sanfilippo: It was cool. It was definitely weird to see you with a baby.

Liz Wolfe: Right? It’s weird to see me with, I look at myself in the mirror with a baby, and I’m like, what, what?

Diane Sanfilippo: I actually think what was weirder, and I know that you have been talking about not having any specific workout or nutrition plan for post baby, but honestly it was weirder that you look exactly the same.

Liz Wolfe: {snort}

Diane Sanfilippo: Because I was like, you don’t even look like you had a baby, this is annoying!

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Well, thanks.

Diane Sanfilippo: In a good way. In a good way. It actually looked like you had this baby, and you just looked kind of normal again. Well, I mean, as normal as you can look. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I was not wearing a girdle, either, so I’ll take that as a real compliment. I did not put one over on you at all. There was nothing underneath the clothes I was wearing on top.

Diane Sanfilippo: Not 4 layers of Spanx? I’m just kidding.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: No, I mean.

Liz Wolfe: No but that’s good!

Diane Sanfilippo: I actually think.

Liz Wolfe: That’s valid because I’ve done that before. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I actually think, not just body wise, but also, even if your, I don’t know if you’re running around crazy trying to, you know, watch her and she’s always up or whatever, but you didn’t seem to be not rested or totally incoherent or any of that. Not that I’m like; I don’t care. {laughs} Even if you were unrested or incoherent, you know me, I’m like, no judgment. I don’t care. But I was like, oh, this is Liz now with a baby attached to her. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: That’s really nice.

Diane Sanfilippo: So yeah. I mean, I guess, to me that’s a compliment, because you seem pretty much the same, just with a baby. And that’s nice. Yeah, it was cool. It was nice to meet her, and that’s really it.

Liz Wolfe: I think my baby weighs more than #HarperMills.

Diane Sanfilippo: Well Harper Mills weighs under 20 pounds, so.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Yeah, no it was cool. And she grabbed my little finger, and that was pretty much it. I think I held her for a second there.

Liz Wolfe: Ok, but you held her again. Ok, so here’s the story. We went to; here’s the story everybody.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: We went to the Roasterie in Leawood; this is a coffee shop in the Kansas City area. And yeah, you held her in the chair, but then at the end, we had to go in and get some Chris Elbow chocolates before we left, and I have to, I’m holding the baby and I’m needing to sign my receipt thing, so I hand the baby to Diane, like here, hold this. And she holds it, like, I’m trying to think of the movie.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like away from me.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, literally like, oh my god. {laughs} What do I do with this.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like I’m holding a baby over a hole, and the baby is going to poo or something.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} Yeah, pretty much.

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t have that natural instinct for cradling a baby. I just don’t have it.

Liz Wolfe: I don’t’ either. I’ve tried cradling my kid, and she wants none of it. But you did good, that was fun.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, well thanks.

Liz Wolfe: Sure thing. So somebody tell me how to make her nap more than 30 minutes, and maybe I’ll get a little bit more done. Maybe I can watch some Housewives.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Ok so I have one other thing that happened before we get to your updates, because I want to hear more about your apartment.

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok.

Liz Wolfe: But, I also wanted to tell everybody that apparently there’s a guy called Tai Lopez, I don’t know, and apparently he has a book of the day, and apparently the book of the day was my book, Eat the Yolks.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh! That’s awesome!

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I had never heard of this person before, but apparently it’s a big deal, and very appreciative. He said some accurate and good things about my book on the Instagram post, and then he said something about; but I would also say that the sourcing of your food matters. And I’m like, wait, are you saying that my book didn’t literally say something like that on every single page?

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: But anyway. That’s my big news.

Diane Sanfilippo: Awesome. Ok, I’m looking at this person’s website really quickly. I couldn’t keep looking though, because I was afraid a video was going to start playing.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Remember when the internet used to just pop up with, just anything, sounds, and you’d be like, where is that coming from? It’s coming from the internet, I can’t find it.

Diane Sanfilippo: That still happens to me all the time, it still does. But that could be because I have 500 million tabs open at all times.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I could be to blame for that.

Liz Wolfe: Possibly.

Diane Sanfilippo: Updates from my end. I have quite a few updates, I’ll try and be quick about some of these. First and foremost, Periscope app.

Liz Wolfe: Ugh!

Diane Sanfilippo: I know everyone has social media app fatigue; however. I’m going to tell you this right now. I’m going to say it this one time, and I might say it many other times. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I really love Periscope, and it’s totally different from the other apps. It’s a much smaller community at this point, because not everyone is over there yet. Which, even once everyone gets over there, whatever it’s fine. But if you like the Q&A format, if you like live events, if you don’t get to come to live events because we don’t end up in the city near you. It’s the perfect app because we can broadcast; I’m broadcasting every single day, some kind of Q&A or a topic on my mind. For the whole month of August I did every day for the 21-Day Sugar Detox talking about what to expect, and you can interact. So you can ask questions or leave comments, and I’ll see them in real time.

So you don’t have to be {laughs} showered and clean and presentable on the other side, you can just watch it. So it’s a live presentation. It’s much quicker and easier to get on there than something like a Google Hangout where you’d need to know the time ahead. And it sends you notification of anyone you’re following who is live on Periscope. So it’s really cool. I’m enjoying watching it. I’m enjoying using it. The community that we have there already is loving the information, because I can just talk off the top of my head. I can also answer questions really quickly, and that’s kind of my arena. You know, whenever we do live events, you know my favorite part is always just Q&A that’s live.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So it’s kind of like I get to do my favorite thing all the time. So definitely come over to Periscope, search for your favorite bloggers, authors, etc. You can find me @DianeSanfilippo, whole name spelled out, and you’ll get notifications when I’m live. I know Noelle Tarr from Coconuts and Kettlebells is on there a bunch, and I know Primal Palate has been on there. I’m not sure if they have lately. But lots of other paleo folks as well, so definitely check that out.

Another quick couple of updates; one, the new website for Balanced Bites/Diane Sanfilippo/whatever you want to call it is launching within the next couple of weeks, and I want to remind people that everyone on my emailing list is going to receive a free eBook called Practical Paleo Quick and Easy, and it’s just a collection of my quick and easy recipes. I think we set it to recipes that have fewer than 5 ingredients, not counting things like salt and pepper, but fewer than 5 ingredients or that take 30 minutes or less. So if you want to get that eBook that we’ll be sending out, make sure you’re on the emailing list. And that will go out when the website launches.

The website has a really cool new feature for filtering recipes, and it’s just going to be a lot more user friendly, and it will be mobile friendly. Which is like, hello, I don’t know why my website was left in the dark ages and I had not made a mobile friendly website, but this one will be pretty darn cool on mobile.

Ok, last couple of quick updates. Events coming up; I need to tell you guys that Caitlyn and Nabil, my co-authors for Mediterranean Paleo Cooking are doing a cooking demo and book signing in New York City Tuesday, September 15th, at the Broadway Panhandler. It’s from 4:30 to 6:30, so go check them out. I don’t know, I’m guessing you get to eat the food. And if you get to eat the food, it’s running right over dinner time, so leave work early, get there at 4:30, and check out that cooking demo. They’re super fun to cook with. Nabil is quite charming, and their food is amazing. So definitely check that out.

And then, September 21st I believe it’s a Monday night, here in San Francisco. It’s actually right after Scott and I come back from the wedding; September 21st, San Francisco, in the Marina at Books Inc., 7 p.m. I’ll be with Juli of PaleOMG, and Vanessa of Clean Eating with a Dirty Mind. They both have brand new books coming out, and all 3 of us will be talking and signing books down at Books Inc in the Marina. So I’ll see you guys there.

Liz Wolfe: So the Broadway Panhandler is an actual location, it is not a human.

Diane Sanfilippo: Not a person, correct.

Liz Wolfe: Ok. Just, I’m just saying. There are probably some people that would be…

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t know why it’s named that, but I’m just the messenger.

2. A new thing I’m into lately: Turbo Kickboxing [12:21]

Diane Sanfilippo: Alright, a new thing I’m into lately, {laughs} which that’s the name of this segment.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I wouldn’t say it’s a thing, but a new change to what I’m going to be doing coming up here is a change in my training. So yesterday was Monday, today is Tuesday. We’re doing this in kind of a timely fashion this week. I went back to a Turbo Kickboxing class, which was a type of workout that I did for many, many years. But I was doing it kind of in an unbalanced way at the time; I was running a bazillion miles a week, and going to anywhere from 3 to 5 Turbo Kickboxing classes a week.

And for those of you who are super nerds who are with me over on the Build a Badass Business podcast as well, funny tie in here, Chalene Johnson is the creator of Turbo Kick, and I’m totally obsessed with her marketing information currently, and interestingly enough I was totally obsessed with her workout back in 20—I don’t know what, {laughs} a long time ago. So, anyway, I went back to a class yesterday, and I just kind of was moving around, and I felt kind of clunky trying to move. I felt like I was doing it just fine, but I was just getting this feeling that I want to do some types of activities that are not lifting heavy things, for a little while.

We will see. This is like when I stopped drinking coffee, ok.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} You guys can’t hold me to this for too long, but I’m glad that we’re recording this kind of in a timely fashion, because I’m going to try it out for a month, maybe a couple of months and see how I feel doing some cardio classes, playing some tennis, going for walks. Maybe jogs; I’m not going to say I’m going to run. I do really enjoy jogging around the city. The views are amazing, the terrain is fun. It’s like I can pick some rolling hills and have a good time with it. I can be running outside; jogging, sorry, jogging outside.

Liz Wolfe: Yogging.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} So I’m going to just see. And part of the reason for me is that, you know, I get bored. I’ve been doing Crossfit since 2010, and so that’s been more than 5 years now. And I also think that for those of us who have bodies that are very responsive to everything that we’re doing; I know there are some people who are like, it doesn’t matter what I’m doing, this is the body that I’m always in. for me, my body is very responsive to the different things I’m doing, and sometimes I just need a change because it does get a little bit bored, and whatever the way that I’m moving. I just want to feel something different, I want to; I don’t want to feel exhausted if I do more than 10 minutes of some kind of cardio activity; I do think my cardiovascular capacity could be increased. I’m not going to be on an all out carb; carb. Cardio binge fest; it’s not going to be 60 minutes of intense cardio every day.

But, I am going to scale back my training and weight lifting further from, even lighter than what I would consider “light” for Crossfit. Like, if I go into a Crossfit workout and the RX is 95 and I could lift 95 for whatever that workout is, lately I had been doing like 75 instead of 95. And now I’m thinking, if I do end up going back to the Crossfit gym, I’ll probably scale it back even more and just get more reps in, and scale it back even to like 45. Something that’s super light. I’m just going to see how it feels for a while. But that’s me, that’s a new thing I’m into lately. It’s just kind of super changing up my training, seeing how my body responds, and seeing how I feel mentally and emotionally about it because I do get bored and I need a change of pace. And I think it will be fun. So there’s that.

Liz Wolfe: Coolness.

Diane Sanfilippo: Thoughts and feelings? {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Mmmm… {laughs} I just, just found it in myself to go for a long walk with my kid in a stroller. I was guilting myself out of taking her for a walk in the stroller because I felt guilty putting her in this physical cast just so I could take a walk. So I just, I’m totally in a different world right now {laughs} than the one you just talked about. It’s a symptom of having too much information, and being paralyzed by it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Analysis paralysis?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, pretty much. Because I’m very; you know, I love Katie Bowman’s book, Move Your DNA talks a ton about movement, right, and how every, I mean even the movement of our hairs on our head, how it communicates to our cells. And it’s so fascinating, but I got into this place where I was like, anywhere I go with the kid, I have to be carrying her. Without a device, certainly without a stroller. We’re not even going to use the stroller, no way.

So I finally, finally let myself guilt free pop her in the carrier and walk around with her. I think I was on the phone with you during one of those little mini walks.

Diane Sanfilippo: I feel like we turned out ok,

Liz Wolfe: I know.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I’m pretty sure that we had all of these horrible insults.

Liz Wolfe: Did we though? Did we?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, we did.

Liz Wolfe: I was in a jumper a pretty good proportion of the time, and I’m not so sure I turned out ok. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I think you turned out just fine. And also, I think that the whole analysis paralysis thing, which actually is a little bit of what we’re going to be talking about today on this episode.

Liz Wolfe: Oh yeah, convenient.

Diane Sanfilippo: But I think that kind of thing happens with nutrition, as well. If people go into something like the autoimmune protocol, for example, it becomes like there are so many restrictions that then you stop living, you know?

Liz Wolfe: Yep.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I think it’s great to heed all of that, and take it in, and then filter it for yourself. You have to do what’s going to feel good for you that’s maybe the right thing to do, but also that you’ll be happy doing. And I think I’m somebody who, {laughs} maybe I put my happiness too high on the list, which is one of the reasons why I’m like, I don’t know if I could do the kid thing. I’m just trying to figure out how to make myself feel happy all the time. You know? And I don’t know. I think the analysis paralysis, though, it does drive happiness down, you know?

Liz Wolfe: Oh yeah. Absolutely. It was probably, I think that at times that can be a huge complicating factor to postpartum depression, as well.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: And that’s, we’re actually going to talk about that type of stuff in Baby Making and Beyond for sure, but that was especially difficult for me in the first couple of months. It was just so hard. But my big, I think personality flaw that makes me probably a good candidate for motherhood is that I kind of like being a martyr sometimes.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I’m like overly self-sacrificial, and my husband is good at that too. Sometimes it’s like battle of the martyrs; battle of the passive aggressive martyrs. It’s kind of fun though.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Sounds like fun.

Liz Wolfe: It is fun.

Liz Wolfe: We’d like to thank Vital Choice for supporting our podcast today, and we encourage you to visit their online store at vitalchoice.com. You’ll find an amazing array of some of the world’s best seafood, including wild Alaskan salmon, halibut, tuna and cod, as well as sustainably harvested shellfish. These foods are not only delicious, but vital choices for your health. You’ll also find grass-fed organic Wagyu beef, live fermented foods to promote gut health, wild organic blueberries, and dark organic chocolates. Eat better, think better, and feel better with deeply nourishing foods from Vital Choice. They’re offering our listeners 15% off any order using code BALANCEDBITES. Remember that orders of $99 or more ship free.

3. Response to fermented cod liver oil report [20:08]

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so onto the meat and potatoes of this podcast. We’re going to talk about cod liver oil, and fermented cod liver oil, and what is happening in that world. Let’s hope it’s a tiny, tiny world compared with the rest of the world. Because this is all I’m seeing right now, is people talking about fermented cod liver oil.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: Is this in your newsfeed as much as it is mine?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, because everyone is sort of pinging us, I think.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: Commenting on, or leaving questions or comments on the Facebook wall and Instagram on totally unrelated posts.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Everyone’s like ahhh! Freaking out, up in arms, and worried.

Liz Wolfe: I have a question; when people talk at you on Instagram, there’s like a finite number of those comments that you can see as you scroll, right?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: They just kind of fall off.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, if people want us to actually see that they’re asking us a question on a picture, or whatever, I think actually the better way to do it is to tag us in the picture. So if you post a picture and you want someone to really see it, I do think tagging someone in the picture is a better way, because you can always see the feed of photos of you, and those don’t get lost. But yeah, if you just “at” one of us, I think those get lost within a couple of hours.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, for sure.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so do you want me to give a little summary here of what’s going on?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, yeah. Summarize away.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, I’m sure that I’m going to go on a tangent. I’m sorry. Just ping me on Skype if I need to shut up and I’ll shut myself up.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Ok.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, so here’s what’s happening as I understand it. We’ve talked about cod liver oil and fermented cod liver oil before in previous episodes, so go dig those up once you’ve listened to this one if you really just got to have more information. But the long story short; we’ve recommended it to people. I personally had great experiences with the cod liver oil, both with my dental health and my skin health, which I’ve detailed that in my website and my Purely Primal Skincare Guide, which used to be the Skintervention Guide, and it’s also been a long-term recommendation of the Weston A. Price Foundation. And I bring up the Weston A. Price Foundation because I think we have kind of a mixed bag of listeners and many of them have come to us from Weston A. Price, many have come to us from paleo.

But this is where I want to give a little bit of a side bar, and I speak for myself here on this. Over time, I’ve really, I’ve been scrubbing references to the Weston A. Price Foundation from my website, and I didn’t even mention them in my book Eat the Yolks, either. The Foundation is there, or at its best it was there to preserve and bring attention to the work of Weston A. Price. Who is the real guy we’re actually interested in; not necessarily the Foundation. And over the last few years, I feel like they’ve kind of gone off the rails a bit, and they’ve been pretty antagonistic, or at least unwilling to have a dialog with the paleo community, which is just so unfortunate.

And some of what they’ve had to say and some of the people they’re aligned with just haven’t made a whole lot of sense to me lately, so I’ve just kind of very intentionally and maybe kind of quietly shifted the focus to the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, they’re wonderful. And the actual work of Dr. Price, which is fascinating, the Weston A. Price Foundation notwithstanding. So I just kind of want to give that preface, first of all. But I think a lot of us actually started taking the cod liver oil, or heard about it; I’m sorry, fermented cod liver oil through Weston A. Price, just to draw that comparison there.

So, with that said, over the last few months there has been some conjecture and some chat about the fermented cod liver oil being rancid or putrefied or toxic or whatever you want to call it. And it’s been said also that the fact that certain people don’t tolerate fermented cod liver oil is some kind of big alarm bell, some kind of further proof that the whole thing is a scam. I’ve also heard people say that Dave Wetzel, who is the guy behind Green Pastures, which is the company that produces fermented cod liver oil, is just this bad guy, and he’s a jerk. So that of course is supposed to lend weight to all of these claims about the fermented cod liver oil being toxic.

So, we’ve kind of observed this unfolding. I personally have maintained that it’s good stuff, that it helped me, it’s helped a ton of people. This other competing brand of cod liver oil that’s not fermented, it’s also wonderful that some people are taking, it’s all good. Now, for the last few days, which is where all of this came from, a nutritionist named, I don’t know if it’s “Kayla” or “Kyla”, because I’ve never actually heard it said in person.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think it’s Kaayla.

Liz Wolfe: Kaayla. She wrote the Whole Soy Story.

Diane Sanfilippo: Kaayla Daniel.

Liz Wolfe: Kaayla Daniel, yep. She came out with a 100+ page report on why the fermented cod liver oil is so bad, she brought in lab tests that she gives to support her claim that it’s rancid, it’s oxidized, etc., and that the butter oil is a scam as well. Am I missing anything?

Diane Sanfilippo: And that the nutritive value isn’t what they claim.

Liz Wolfe: Yes. Ok. So, I’m going to give some opinions real quick. A lot of people might disagree with me; I don’t know, this is a really heated topic. But here’s my bottom line, kind of before we get into anything. I do believe the fermented cod liver oil works. It does contain nutrients that are important. I feel like, like any superfood, it can vary in levels of nutrients and one batch could differ from another batch. I just don’t think that’s something that’s so unusual.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, and we’ve talked about that before.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: As being almost a benefit, and it is one of the reasons why highly industrialized fish oil is easy for people to take and measure and all of that, because it’s so industrialized and processed that they know exactly what to measure in it, because a lot of it is actually added in.

Liz Wolfe: It’s standardized.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. So now, as far as the fermented cod liver oil, no it doesn’t work for everyone. No supplement works for every person that takes it. I think people just thinking it’s this miracle thing that’s going to fix everything; maybe they’re frustrated with the fact that not everyone can tolerate it, just like not everyone can tolerate kombucha.

Diane Sanfilippo: Or whey protein powder {laughs}.

Liz Wolfe: Or whey, yeah! Yeah, exactly. And by the same token, not everyone has a physical need for the nutrients that it contains. I know that there are some people that are on vitamin A overload and they can’t have more. Some people don’t need any more vitamin D. and this doesn’t make it inherently bad. There is actually; one of the things that’s being thrown around is that this is brown cod liver oil, and there are more pure types of cod liver oil. There’s actually a long history behind the use of brown cod liver oil for healing purposes. And that’s neither here nor there.

But here’s my thing; if something you’re taking makes you feel like crap, you need to stop taking it, or you need to seek a practitioner to figure out whether, well, maybe you’re mobilizing, you're detoxing or whatever it is. But the same could be said for a lot of supplements, and the comments for a lot of this recent hullabaloo is full of people who did not take responsibility for their own health, and literally they’re saying, I took it because Weston A. Price Foundation told me to, even though it made me completely sick every time I took it for 2 years.

Diane Sanfilippo: And you’re not talking about the smell, or taste. Because I just want to remind people that it’s fish liver oil.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: So if you have any aversion to fish, or seafood, or liver, which most people do have these aversions. I don’t see that; I don’t see the ick factor as an issue. I think the ick factor is an ick factor; I don’t think that’s legitimate. You know what I mean? I’m like, ok. Put your big girl panties on, and eat the sardines, eat the liver, eat the fish, whatever. You know what I mean?

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t like using that, because I think that’s; it’s like a low blow against the fact that nature has created organs to not smell and taste that great {laughs} you know.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s just not a fair, I don’t think it’s a fair assessment. But anyway.

Liz Wolfe: Ok so I do want to throw in that we’ll talk about the report in a minute, and Kaayla. Well, I’ll talk about it now. So her report is basically an opt-in offer that she’s using, and this is smart. She’s using it to get people to sign up for her emails. And she calls herself the Naughty Nutritionist, and there’s a persona there. And of course she wrote The Whole Soy Story, so it’s clear that she prides herself on exposes. And I liked the Whole Soy Story.

When I was writing my book, I took a peek at her reference section, and I couldn’t trace every last thing that she contended in her book about soy, but it’s an important book, and I was able to track down some good sources for background information that way, so I appreciate her work there. And her conclusions in this report, and if you really want to see it, you know, you can look it up. I don’t know if we’ll link to it or what.

I can’t say whether the quality or methods from Green Pastures have been consistent over the last few years. It’s certainly possible that they changed something because of the incredible demand from the paleo community.

Diane Sanfilippo: In the production, you mean.

Liz Wolfe: Yes; for the production. If that’s the case, then that’s unfortunate. It’s actually been quite a while since I took the stuff, because I used it in a therapeutic way, and I don’t take it so much anymore because I don’t have the need. So maybe something changed, I don’t know. But certainly when I started taking it, and started recommending it, it was definitely with the knowledge that it actually had been tested independently for nutrient content and oxidation markers. I feel I did my due diligence with that; I felt they did too. I don’t know if this is all arising from a sudden issue, or what.

I do know that another cod liver oil, which I actually also recommend and have reviewed on my website came to the public around the same time that Green Pastures started having these kind of PR issues. I think at first maybe this rival brand was kind of informing people that they felt fermentation was not the best way to produce cod liver oil, and that in turn maybe reflected negatively on Green Pastures. I just don’t know.

But this so-called expose gives some lab values, and it speculates about what these lab values mean. But we don’t know what those values actually mean at this point. We need to look into this more. This is definitely something that we want to follow through to the end. At this point, the case is not closed. And my biggest issue here, and this is where the rant comes in and I’m almost done. I hate the tone of what Dr. Daniel, she’s a PhD. I believe she got her PhD from a holistic nutrition school, and I can’t remember what it was, I’ve been asked that a couple of times. But the tone of this thing is incredibly, it’s just. Man, I always make these statements like nobody listens to the podcast, and now this is going to be something that I’ve said, and it’s going to be on the internet. But it’s incredibly disrespectful, it’s uncreative, and it’s smearing.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: I feel like there’s this feeling of, “I’m so clever” here. But it was not a straightforward report. It’s dressed up with all of these kind of disrespectful, like sardonic but not super creative; it’s just mean. And I feel like we should all be open to discussing this, even the most damning test results possible, to be sure we all have and use the best information we possibly can, but this just does not feel like respectful scientific discourse to me, and it’s just this ugly kind of language, and I dislike it. I really want the information presented to me without all of that dress up. So that’s kind of where I stand at this point. So, stepping off soap box.

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, I agree for sure on the approach taken. I think one of the things you and I always try to do, and I would say, you know, I think it’s just in our nature to be this way, where we tend to be more balanced and I can’t say that it’s in credit to someone like Chris Kresser, but I definitely thing we both share a lot of respect for the way he approaches these topics. I know he actually recently released a blog post on this, and I skimmed over it because I was like, yeah, this is exactly what we were already going to talk about on our podcast.

But I think that one of the things that you touched on was just the motivation or the emotion behind the choice to take a supplement and feeling like it’s a great panacea, and it’s the thing that you take, and each person doesn’t personally question it or question it in terms of how well it works for them. So for the last, as you had said, for the last 2 years or at least a year, you probably; well, maybe you were taking it at some point. But I haven’t taken it in a couple of years, and I didn’t see it as anything to publicize; oh, I am taking this, I’m not taking it. Just like you said; I took it for a period of time, I felt like it really helped my skin. I didn’t feel like I needed it anymore after another period of time, for whatever reason, I stopped taking it. That’s how I am with all supplements; I’ve always been very transparent about that. I’m not like, oh I take this every day and then I don’t. I’ve always said you know, I don’t remember supplements every day. {laughs} I do my best.

But I think anyone who gets, I don’t know if the word is defensive or super upset. I do think it’s reasonable to feel like we should know the answers to some of these questions, and at the same time I think a lot of it, and this is something in reading what Chris Kresser wrote, and I know he probably talked to probably Chris Masterjohn a bit about this. Some of what’s being measured in these real food based supplements, it’s not the same as measuring a synthetic vitamin. It’s not the same as saying, ok this much is added, here’s the constituent that we’re measuring. Because what we’re measuring in real food; I mean the same way we talk all the time about how the power of real food and the synergistic nutrients in real food, you will never match it with a supplement. Because this is more of a real food, a concentrated real food, we can’t measure everything that’s in there, and we also can’t measure how it’s going to work for everyone.

A lot of people who are reacting badly to it perhaps are sensitive to dairy, if they’re taking the butter oil blend. That’s one reason why people react poorly. You mentioned vitamin A toxicity, or some people are even having vitamin D toxicity. It could be from this, it could be from something else; we don’t know. But that’s another issue. And then another one that people have is like a histamine intolerance; and that’s an issue that will come up whether you’re taking any fermented food into your system or not. It’s not something that’s unique to the fermented cod liver oil. So I do think that’s all information worth considering.

I don’t think either of us had a freak out reaction when we saw this.

Liz Wolfe: Nu-huh.

Diane Sanfilippo: We’re just like, ok, well, here we go. There’s always something that we think is great, and then someone who thinks is not as great as we think, and we’re always trying to balance out, what’s the truth and how do we move forward? I think the truth is always that everything that we’re trying to eat and consume, there are always ups and downs to all of it. We can say that grass-fed whey is a great source of XYZ nutrients. It’s high in glutathione, it’s high in maybe some certain vitamins, I don’t know. But we can say that this thing is great, right, but some people like myself don’t tolerate it. So if I were to just start taking it because it’s high in all these things that are so great for me, but it doesn’t work for me, I can’t just keep taking it. I have to use the squishy thing in my head. I have to use my brain and think, here’s what’s going to work for me.

Of course, there are people who are feeling like they spent a lot of money on it, maybe to the sacrifice of other things, and to those people I would say, if you experienced a benefit from it, I wouldn’t assume that that’s not real, and I wouldn’t assume that you’re also experiencing a downside or a negative to this product. We don’t know yet. That’s the real information here; we’re just not sure. So maybe some of the claims about the nutritive value are overstated. Maybe they’re not. Maybe there’s rancidity; maybe there’s not. I don’t know. The testing that was done, there’s no conclusion there on whether or not this stuff is rancid.

I think some of the questions that did come up were whether or not it was actually taken from Alaskan cod or from something else; like was it haddock or something?

Liz Wolfe: Pollock. I don’t know.

Diane Sanfilippo: Pollock.

Liz Wolfe: A relative of cod.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, I also think as much as I believe in transparency and the fact that it should be what it says it is, if there’s a fish that’s very similar in nutritive value, I’m not sure that that makes me so crazy. I would like to know on the label if they want to call it fermented cod liver oil, and then they tell you, made from livers derived from the following two or three fish. As long as that’s disclosed, I don’t really have an issue with that, because we know that we’re eating all different kinds of animals, and maybe there’s not just one, and maybe there’s not enough of just one to use that one. I just think it does need to be disclosed.

So you know, I do have a bit of an issue with the lack of transparency from Green Pastures, and I think that’s, at the core of this, that’s the problem that I think most of us have. We just want transparency, we want there to be more diligent testing. I do think it’s disappointing that the Weston A. Price Foundation said no to doing more testing because it’s probably the number one thing that they recommend, and you know, if it were me and this were something that I was standing behind so firmly to the point where I’m recommending it to probably hundreds of thousands of members, and it was within my realm of what my responsibility was to make sure that these things that I’m recommending are what they say they are. I think would have just approached it differently, without fear. I think when people don’t want to do testing, or don’t want to spend money on testing, it could be out of fear.

I think the problem with the reports that Kaayla posted were, and what everyone is kind of calling to attention is that the lab names were blacked out, and that’s really not a gold standard way of sharing lab results. Typically, let’s just say you’re sharing lab results of a client on your website, and you want to show an improvement in health; sure, you block out the person’s name, but you don’t black out the name of the lab. Because the name of the lab is sort of your weight. That’s your, you know, that’s your test of saying this is legitimate. Because otherwise any graphic designer could type up lab results. {laughs} You know?

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: it’s not something that; you know, we need to see the name of that lab, people need to know that this is a lab that is trusted, or they can be contacted, etc. So I think that, I don’t think there’s any cause for alarm for everyone to freak out, that they should throw out their fermented cod liver oil. I think if it’s working for you and you’ve felt good taking it and you’ve seen good results, that’s your test. I do think that the ick factor, you know, while it could be an issue, and we may find out down the road that there are issues with it, I think that’s an issue of just {laughs} fish liver perhaps not being the best tasting thing.

I know people are talking about the Rosita brand extra virgin cod liver oil; you’ve talked about it for probably a couple of years now.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So everyone is asking about it; it’s like, you’ve been talking about it for this long. It’s not news to us, and we’ve mentioned it. But I think sometimes people put blinders on because they just want to go with the one thing.

We’re just doing the best we can, just like everyone else to recommend what we discover, what we find works for us, what we find is available. I think that while the responsibility should be on each company who is selling products to disclose information to the best of their ability; and to the best of their ability with what the public is demanding. You know, not just, oh this is the best we can do. If the public is demanding and their customers are demanding more, I do think it’s their responsibility to come back with more information. I think it’s fair for people to maybe be on pause a little bit, but look, if this thing isn’t working for you. If it doesn’t work for you, if you see no results or you feel negative results, that’s just a sign, in general with any supplement, don’t take it. You know?

If you have extreme health challenges that you need to be working one on one with a practitioner, but you’re not and you’re just kind of following advice here and there piecemeal, I really think that’s a lesson to make sure you are working with somebody one on one who can look at how things are working for you supplement wise, and change and go forward. I also don’t believe that there’s any supplement that we should be taking all the time. 4

The only thing I’m taking right now that I talked about recently is a multivitamin that I’m trying out, I’m going to see how it goes {laughs} and that’s that. I think there could be a place for that very regularly, but we forget it some days. And I’m not sweating it. I’m not trying to get everything simply from the supplement.

And I’d like to remind people, too, that all along as we’ve talked about fermented cod liver oil or with the butter oil blend, we’ve always mentioned that, hey if you’re eating fatty cold water fish like salmon, mackerel, sardines, we have one of our amazing sponsors is Vital Choice.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: You can get it from them, you can get high quality fish from them. If you’re eating this fatty cold water fish a few days a week, if you’re eating organ meats, especially liver in this case, and if you’re getting some good quality butter oil in, which I think eating ghee has really changed my skin. I think, you know, I do love Tin Star brand, I know that it’s made from grass fed butter and I feel like I’m getting the nutrients that my skin really wants and needs, and the quality and texture of my skin has been better in the last, I would say, year or so since I've been eating that very regularly, using it as my number one cooking oil versus coconut oil. I think that the long term benefit of an extra tablespoon or two of that into my diet every day has shown great results for me, and that’s how I’d rather get it anyway. I want to eat the food.

So I think that’s something that you and I are always going to remind people; that’s our baseline of what we want people to do. I’m always going to come back to saying, I don’t care if you don’t like fish and I don’t care if you don’t like liver. Find a way to like it, whether you whip the liver. Chicken liver is probably one of the most palatable. Get, at the minimum, organic chicken livers. If you can get pastured, that’s great. They should be pretty bright, deep red in color. They shouldn’t be light pinkish color. I will use organic chicken livers, even if they’re not pastured, if that’s what I can find, and that’s what I will eat, that’s what I will eat.

And I’ll make the chicken liver pate from Practical Paleo. I know there are some chicken liver mousse recipes out there that are paleo friendly, and some that use butter or some that use ghee. And you can find these recipes. There are meatloaf recipes; we’ve talked about this a lot on the show. Different ways to get liver and organ meats into your diet. Mediterranean Paleo Cooking has lots of ways to get organ meats into your diet, and seafood. I just think as adults, that’s our biggest responsibility, is to get these foods into our diet, and our biggest responsibility and attention shouldn’t be on; is there a pill or a supplement I can take instead of eating those foods. I think it’s our responsibility to find a way to eat the foods first.

Liz Wolfe: Agreed.

Diane Sanfilippo: #Endrant? I don’t know, is that the end of my rant there?

Liz Wolfe: It might be mostly the end of your rant.

4. Approach supplements in general [44:04]

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you want to talk a little bit too just about the approach to supplements in general? Because I know this is something that we talk about a bunch. We did talk about for years teaching workshops; I know it’s in our online workshop that’s getting wrapped up in production in the next couple of months here, which is huge.

Liz Wolfe: For realsies. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Ginormous. I know, you guys, it’s insane. I can’t believe how amazing it is, but it’s taken a very long time to produce. Anyway. We do talk about what we consider to be super foods and supplements, and you know, we kind of share a perspective on the way supplementation should go for folks. So do you want to talk a little bit more about that, like other types of supplements in general?

Liz Wolfe: Ok, yeah. And you’ll probably have more to say on this. But number 1, and also backing up a little bit, I want to talk about the amount people take of something.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mmm.

Liz Wolfe: Just because you perceive that you need something, it doesn’t mean that more is better.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} More is more.

Liz Wolfe: More is more. So I think one of the posts that was going around the internet was from Dr. Ron; and I love Dr. Ron. They’re a great company.

Diane Sanfilippo: And they were selling it for a while, weren’t they?

Liz Wolfe: They were, yeah. I don’t know if they stopped selling it or not. But Dr. Ron basically said, I was taking super physiological levels of this stuff, completely ridiculous, like tablespoons upon tablespoons, and our biological requirement. I talk about this in Eat the Yolks; our biological requirement for polyunsaturates is relatively low. That’s something that I learned from I believe Chris Masterjohn.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: So taking a crap ton of cod liver oil is not going to make your body compound upon the positive effects of cod liver oil. You just need a little bit. So the same goes for any kind of supplement that you may consider taking; more is just more. So you want to be really diligent about this. Diane, you and I have always said this. We used to go through in our online workshops and basically say; if you’re dealing with XYZ, you might want to look at this type of supplementation to see whether it’s right for you. It’s not like, everybody needs to be doing juice plus! It’s like, if you have a particular need, let’s evaluate this, go find a practitioner, and figure out what you might want to take, and start small. I think that’s kind of the big thing.

And like you were saying, start by looking at where you can get these things from food. Look at your digestive landscape, which has always been like, let’s back up and before we even talk about the good food you’re going to eat, let’s talk about how you’re going to digest it, how your body is going to use it, and what your body is telling you in the first place. And then we can move on to how you’re going to get these nutrients, and whether or not you're going to do with an isolated supplement.

Diane Sanfilippo: I also think that a lot of the reason why you and I have talked so much about fermented cod liver oil, and particularly I know with the butter oil blend, over the last 4+ years, is that one of your big areas of research and study and experimentation has been skin health, and improving skin texture, and appearance, and all of that. It has been one of the things that you’ve see, I’ve seen. You’ve seen in your clients, I’ve seen across the board, improving with people taking it. So I don’t know every other potential benefit or downside, but that’s kind of the arena we’ve been in. So in that context, we’ve definitely seen great advantages to people taking it. But I think also the context of who is recommending it and why really matters.

I know in the case, again of fermented cod liver oil, Chris Kresser had it as a big recommendation in his Healthy Baby Code, and I don’t think he’s upset that he recommended it. I’m pretty sure his wife was taking it while she was pregnant, I know his daughter was taking it. I don’t think anybody is too up in arms, but I do think that it’s always for a period of time, and always with that measure of, “how do you feel.”

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: it’s never blindly and because it’s supposed to be good for me. You should notice a difference. I think you should notice a difference when you're taking supplements. I think it might take a few months for some supplements to kick in and really see a difference depending on what they are, 1-3 months, but if you take something for a few months and you don’t feel anything positive or see anything or notice anything; especially if there’s anything negative. It’s just a sign to let it go. I mean, I just wouldn’t get too hung up on it.

Liz Wolfe: {sigh} Agreed.

Diane Sanfilippo: So there’s that.

Liz Wolfe: There’s that. And the other thing I also wanted to say, before I forget. As far as kids go, I think a lot of people are kind of forcing their kids to take cod liver oil, which I’m really not cool with. I think kids have an amazing inherent wisdom about what their body needs, and especially if you kind of start them on tradition foods from the very beginning. I think that even Weston A. Price said this; I’m pretty sure my friend Jennifer from 20-something allergies was mentioning that Weston Price basically said that if the kid stops wanting their cod liver oil, then it’s done its job and they don’t need it anymore.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: So, pay attention to what your kids are telling you with their appetites and their preferences. Because a lot of times, you don’t really need to be jamming supplements or cod liver oil down their throats just because you think it must be the best thing, and that’s how they’re going to grow up big and strong. it’s not necessarily the case. I think kids have a pretty good idea of what they need. Provided they’re not raised on Cocoa Puffs. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Exactly, I was going to say, that is with the caveat that their palate has been, you know, maybe you gave it to them from a very young age, and real whole foods, you weren’t feeding them stuff that’s overly sweet and stimulating to the point where, of course a kid raised on sweet foods and treats and that kind of stuff is not going to be a big fan. I mean, this would have been me, so I’m not saying it with any judgment. {laughs} I’m just saying, I was definitely not raised on what I would probably guess to be a real food diet.

But yeah, a kid raised on that, just like any of us as adults, have aversions to foods and organ meats and all of that, they’re not going to have that same internal, innate wisdom perhaps because they’re palates are not used to that kind of thing. So, just a caveat there.

Liz Wolfe: I like it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Alright, I think we can probably wrap that up. I’ve got a crying baby, but we have a couple of things to do first. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Before I attend to my crying baby. She’s fine. She’s with nana.

Liz Wolfe: We are thrilled to have Paleo Treats back on our sponsor roster. We love their treats, from the Mustang bar to the Bandito and everything in between. They have been serving the paleo community since 2009, and were recently recognized by FedEx as one of the top 10 small business in America. Which of course, speaks to how much paleo and healthy eating is growing, but it also speaks to how passionate our friends Nick and Lee and the Paleo Treats team are about what they do. Use the code BALANCEDBITES one word, no space at http://www.paleotreats.com/ for 10% off.

5. Treat yoself: Primal Kitchen Mayo [51:24]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, do we a treat yoself this week? Do you have one, or do I just have one?

Liz Wolfe: I’m always treating myself.

Diane Sanfilippo: Treating myself?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I just forget to take pictures of it. I eat chocolate all day, ery day. Chocolate. Just all the chocolate.

Diane Sanfilippo: Er-day?

Liz Wolfe: Yep.

Clip: Three words for you; Treat. Yo. Self.

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, I’m going to throw out. Ugh, it’s like I want to say 2, but then I’m like, will I have one next week? {laughs} I think I probably will. But I’m going to throw out one treat yoself this week that I’ve been using, and I love it and it’s a treat yoself and it’s like a; it’s a splurge, so that counts as a treat yoself. Right? Something that you kind of spend a little more on.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because it’s a treat. And hey, you deserve it. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: So I am going to give a shout out on this treat yoself to Primal Kitchen Mayo. Primal Kitchen Foods I think is the name of the official company. This is from the Sisson. {laughs} And if you haven’t seen this stuff floating around the real food paleosphere, you might be living under a social media rock, because people have been talking about it for quite some time now. It’s been out for several months. And it’s really, really good. It’s made from avocado oil, which I like. I think it’s an ok oil. I don’t love for people to cook with it, but I do think a mayo is probably a really good application. I’m personally a fan of mayonnaise.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I think we’ve talked about it before on the show, because I know that you like to make fun of the way I say the word mayonnaise.

Liz Wolfe: Yes I do.

Diane Sanfilippo: How do you say it?

Liz Wolfe: “Ma-nnaise”.

Diane Sanfilippo: “Ma-nnaise.” Like there’s no Y. Like man-naise.

Liz Wolfe: Look.

Diane Sanfilippo: That sounds like a totally different product.

Liz Wolfe: This is the world we live in. this is how it’s pronounced.

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, so I think if you want to try it, you can splurge, treat yoself, try the mayonnaise. You can get it from a lot of places. I know Kasandrinos sells it and you can, I don’t know, I’m sure I have a discount code if you type BALANCEDBITES, and when you order on Kasandrinos, I’m sure there’s a discount code there, like 10 or 15%. I think it’s 15. So if you want to get it at a good deal, I bet you can get it there at a good price. But I say treat yoself to some Primal Kitchen Mayo.

Liz Wolfe: I like it.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I was just pause space. I was just doing a pause.

Liz Wolfe: Pause space. Sorry. There was muting and I was listening to the cry.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s ok, we can wrap it up.

Liz Wolfe: Ok.

Liz Wolfe: So that’s it for this week. You can find me, Liz, at http://realfoodliz.com/ and you can find Diane at http://dianesanfilippo.com. Join our email lists for free goodies and updates that you don’t find anywhere else on our website or on the podcast. While you’re on the internet, leave us an iTunes review. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.