Podcast Episode #47: Weston A. Price, Organ Meats, Kombucha & Sourdough

Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone, I'm Liz Wolfe, nutritional therapy practitioner and certified Twilight Saga expert. I'm here with[ laughs] You didn't know I was going to say that. I'm here with certified nutrition consultant and CHEK Holistic Lifestyle Coach and the woman behind BalancedBites.com, Diane Sanfilippo. Welcome to episode 40-something [laughs] of the Balanced Bites podcast. I think once you hit 40, you stop counting, in life and in podcasts.

Diane Sanfilippo: [laughs]

Liz Wolfe: So everybody remember that the materials and content contained in this podcast are intended as general information only, and not to be considered a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

So Diane, before we get, you know, into the beef here, I just need to know because I've been under a rock for a few weeks working on some very intense projects. I've been trying to wrap those up. How in the hell did I not know that the Teen Dreams from the Twilight Saga were embroiled in this like scandalous affair? You don't even know what I'm talking about, do you?

Diane Sanfilippo: [laughs] No, I have no idea. I am so not the vampire fiction girl. I have like…like you could take my girl card back if you want, but I have no idea about any of that.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs] It's so sad. I honestly don't even know how I even found out about this. I think…I don't know. I think I was at CVS or something or you know, and you see those magazines that they put right up there, like “Scandal! Stars Have Cellulite!” You know, “So-and-so is cheating on So-and-so!” and I don't know where I heard this, but…

Diane Sanfilippo: I do know that…

Liz Wolfe: Go ahead, lady.

Diane Sanfilippo: I do know that Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise are splitting. That was…

Liz Wolfe: No way!

Diane Sanfilippo: See, I knew something! [laughs]

Liz Wolfe: How do I not know that? That just shows how I've been in a hole for like months.

Diane Sanfilippo: It just means I get more manicures than you do because that's where I get my celebrity news.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs] Oh my gosh. So sad. Okay, well, anyway…It's these quick flashes I hear of pop culture are so out of context, and honestly, I'm still stuck on the like New Kids on the Block breaking up and Marky Mark pre-pants wearing era, so my attempts to be hip to the happenings are just really pathetic, so…

Anyway, so tell me. You've been podcasting and traveling like a fiend. So tell me what's been going on.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my goodness, well, last weekend, the end of last week, I went down to St. Louis and was at the Juvenile Arthritis Foundation conference, which was amazing. Like probably one of the coolest days of my nutrition career to date because it was just amazing to see…yeah, it was just…So the Juvenile Arthritis Foundation and what a lot of people don't know about arthritis is that, you know, their kind of shtick is that kids get arthritis, too. And some of these kids…so I basically was talking to the young adults, so they're 18 to 30 years old, which is perfect for me because when I did go to speak with 11th and 12th graders, it was a little bit of a crash and burn. Like it went fine, but I clearly have an audience that is a little bit older, and…

Liz Wolfe: I don't know how to…

Diane Sanfilippo: I just don't know how to…No, I have no idea how to talk to kids. I don't even know how to talk to like adolescents. I mean, really, it's just not…

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: You know, I could either like stress out and try and figure it out, or I could just say it's not thing. But anyway, the young adults were awesome. Super receptive. I sat around with them kind of the night before and you know, we all exchanged stories of why we were there, and a good handful of them were just siblings to people who had arthritis, so not everyone at the round table did have it, but many of them had been diagnosed since they were 8 months old or a year.

Liz Wolfe: My God. Wow.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I guess when it kind of like…yeah, I mean, it was just like, I had a pit in my stomach of like just so crazy, but also the opportunity is huge to try and help them. But I guess what happens is like when they start to try and crawl, they're having trouble or they don't want to. And because they're in pain. And you know, because I was like, how do you get diagnosed at that age? And then I don't know if there's some blood markers or if it's just you check for some things. Maybe they do check for things, like autism, like some people just aren't moving properly but then that's it not that. Yeah, a lot of these kids were diagnosed from ages that young. Some more from like 10 or 11 or even their early teens, and they're pretty much all on pretty serious medications. Some on immune suppressants. Some of them are called biologic and I guess they're very targeted immune suppressants that work on very specific like cytokines and things like that, so I was kind of researching while I was there because I found it really interesting. But what was also really enlightening and eye-opening when I did teach my session, which is about 20 to 30 people, and the whole conference was thousands of people, but all different ages. But mostly the young adults, some of the parents, and I kind of took a poll of how many of them had ever tried any sort of dietary change to help their inflammation. And probably out of the 20 to 30 people in the room, maybe 5 or 6 raised their hands, and to me, that was like, just totally eye-opening that there's so much opportunity to teach them. And the amazing thing is, standing in that room talking about inflammation, I…you know, you and I teach huge groups of people and I would say most people in the room, and this isn't, you know, a shot at anybody, most people in the room really don't know what inflammation is. Like we explain it to them, but these kids or young adults, like they ALL know what inflammation and they're sitting there, pretty much in pain all the time somehow. So you know, some of them have gone into remission here and there where they don't have the pain, but I mean, it's just amazing, and they're smiling and interacting as normal kids, and like their spirit was just…to me, it was just really motivating and I just love being able to talk a whole room full of people who were dealing with this condition, and just explain to them, like hey, there's things that you can change about your food that will lower inflammation in your body and that might help you feel better. Like, whoa, you know, this is…

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: This is huge stuff and, you know, I really…I was very carefully directed not to use any kind of words like “curing” or, you know, anything about them maybe not needing all of the medications they're on, but the reality is, I checked out RobbWolf.com, Mark Sisson's site-there are tons of testimonials of people who had rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile arthritis, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, all different forms who really have been able to go off their medications, so we don't know. You know, we don't know how advanced some of them are. We don't know what the opportunity is, but for me, even if, you know, one or two of them heard something I said and make some changes and try something and can feel better, like, to me it's all…it's all worth it. So they all really loved the talk. The feedback forms that came back were all like, everyone had checked off that it was excellent and that they really enjoyed it, so I may be involved with some more of their local, in New York City, young adult chapter in the near future because they just were really responsive to what I was teaching them. So that was really cool.

Liz Wolfe: That is cool. So kind of what I'm hearing is like…and what's so interesting about this is that, so the people that we would bring in to the Balanced Bites workshops where we teach and we talk about inflammation, those folks, for the most part, what strikes me when we ask them who is familiar with this kind of Paleo anti-inflammatory diet, almost everybody will raise their hands. So you have this huge group of people, that is, that may not be able to actually articulate and know exactly what the mechanism for inflammation is in the body. They're doing this anti-inflammatory…

Diane Sanfilippo: Right.

Liz Wolfe: diet because they feel it's the right thing vs. this group that you were talking to, who can probably go through the entire, you know, inflammatory mechanism for what they're dealing with, yet they'll tackle it with diet in the way that people in our workshops do. So it's just so interesting to me.

Diane Sanfilippo: It is. And, you know, I did talk to a bunch of them, kind of on the side or before or after the talk, and you know, they said, I'm really interested because my doctor never mentioned anything about diet. And you know, of course for me, this is kind of heartbreaking because there are a lot of conditions out there where, you know, doctors will give them like a handout about nutrition and even if it's not right, like they've at least been like clued in to the fact that there may be something they can do nutritionally and almost all of these kids were like, no, we never heard that there was anything we could do. And so I'm just like, you know, mind equals blown here because like there's just a huge, huge opportunity and it's just, I mean, you want to cry and also scream in excitement because some of the kids walking around, and Liz, they're like tiny little toddlers, you know, and it's like oh my God, I just…I really feel for them, but it's a happy weekend and it's like their summer camp, you know, where they go for a weekend and they're with all kids who are dealing with the same thing, which is sad, but it's also awesome. You know what I mean? They're not the strange kid, you know, so…very cool.

Liz Wolfe: Cool. So did you get to show anybody your book while you were at the conference?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, so I did. I actually brought like a whole suitcase full of books. And…

Liz Wolfe: Wait, hold on. Let me say this real quick, Diane. Your book is freaking amazing. And I'm going to write about this on my blog when I like come out from under my rock, but like, it really has kind of renewed my commitment to everything that we're doing. I just want to say that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh good. I know, and you really hadn't seen much of it…

Liz Wolfe: Nn-mm.

Diane Sanfilippo: Before you actually got the book…

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: And it was funny when Bill and Hayley saw it. Hayley was like, I felt like I already knew what your book was, and now I'm realizing I only saw the last third. I'm like, yeah, this thing is a monster. Yeah, so I was able to take it around and I've been talking about this on a whole bunch of podcasts all week, so I won't say too much, but basically, you know, I was able to show it to people there and they were just excited. You know, excited to try something potentially different and really they had never…they had never really heard that there was anything else they could do. So I'm hoping that some of them also kind of like come on to Facebook page or maybe tune into the podcast and you know, the young adults have commutes. I was like, hey you can download this podcast, so that might be cool if I hear from some of them. Yeah, they were really cool. So…

Liz Wolfe: Very cool. And you have been podcasting, too, so do you want to just tell everybody where to find you on non-Balanced Bites podcasts?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, maybe what I'll do is put a bunch of links, either in our post for today's episode or in a separate one, just on some recent media, so it may go in today's or it may go in like tomorrow or something, but yeah, just all different podcasts: Beverly Meyers' podcast, Underground Wellness, I talked…

Liz Wolfe: She's so smart.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: I love Beverly Meyers. Like we met her at PaleoFX. She's hilarious.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. She's got a good show, and I talked to Sean Croxton last night. He's a good friend of mine. I mean, we've known each other for years and years now. Because the CHEK Institute, like we basically connected because of that. And then Dr. Lowe-I talked to Dr. Lowe a few days ago, which was awesome. Yeah, a couple of others, too. I think I'm talking to Jimmy Moore today. I don't know when that will go live, but he's always an awesome, awesome interview. He's one of those people, in case people don't know, like you never know what he's going to ask you beforehand. Some interviewers, like they want you to know what they're going to ask, so that you're a little more prepared, and Jimmy just goes completely on the fly, so I think that's going to be really fun, and I know he's had a bunch of time to check out the book, so I'm really excited to hear what he thinks. It's been really cool.

Liz Wolfe: Wicked.

Diane Sanfilippo: Wicked awesome.

Liz Wolfe: So speaking of podcasts, onto podcast materials?

Diane Sanfilippo: Indeed, so today we have a topic. Want to tell people?

Liz Wolfe: We do have a topic, yes. So I'm going to give my…give a little shpiel. A little intro to the topic. We have gotten a lot of questions that are kind of Weston A. Price-related, and this is something that we're really passionate about, so I'll just give kind of the overview for those who don't know. Let's see. Where do I even want to start? So you and I, Diane and I are both Weston A. Price Foundation members. I've been a member for almost, oh, 3 years now, and I have to say that while I was exposed to the Paleo ideas first, probably back in 2008,I found such amazing synergy between the ideas of Paleo and the Primal movements and Weston A. Price. Weston A. Price has been around for a very long time, the foundation for at least ten years…for at least a decade. And the research of Weston A. Price actually goes far further back than that. Anyway I talk about that synergy on my blog, on CaveGirlEats.com. So I honestly…I can barely talk about good nutrition without giving due credit to both the Paleo community and the Weston A. Price community.

So let's start with a little shpiel on what the Weston A. Price Foundation is all about. The Foundation itself-and you can find their website at WestonAPrice.org; it exists to preserve and further of Dr. Weston A. Price. So Weston A. Price, and this is direct quote, he basically “demonstrated that humans achieve perfect physical form and perfect health, generation after generation, only when they consume nutrient-dense, whole foods and the vital fat soluble activators found excessively in animal fats.” So I think we all are kind of bought into this nutrient-dense train, and that's why we do what we do. But what really has always fascinated me about the work of the Weston A. Price Foundation is this idea of this fat soluble activators, and that one of the easiest ways that we get people to incorporate these fat soluble activators is by taking the cod liver oil/butter oil blend. That's just kind of a practical application of these ideas. A corollary to all of this is the research of Dr. Pottenger and there's another foundation called the Price-Pottenger Foundation that also has a wealth of information on the effects of food on health across generations. But Dr. Price, who was trained as a dentist, he, less than a century ago, basically traveled the world, visiting isolated traditional cultures from Switzerland to Africa and Australia, looking to see what these cultures were doing and how they lived and what particulars of their dietary traditions kept them free of what we call the “diseases of modern civilization,” so these degenerative diseases, the diseases that we did not see before kind of the advent of modern, what they call “modern displacing foods of commerce.” So flour, sugar, modern wheat, all that kind of stuff, just nutrient-poor foods. This also kind of applies to the depletion of the soil and mass agricultural operations.

So Price was basically looking at the modern day manifestation of Paleo-style eating. Based on these foods that are available in nature and those that kept those people healthy in contemporary times. So what inspired this journey was the volume of people that he saw in his dental clinic who were coming in with absolutely just degenerating teeth and weak constitutions, poor immunity, and Dr. Price believed that it was a result of what he…the modern displacing foods of commerce that we talked about a minute ago. So Dr. Price took these foods that these traditional, isolated cultures were eating and analyzed them, and what he saw is that while the diets varied…so say the Swiss, the isolated Swiss might eat a higher volume of raw dairy and sprouted grains, the Maasai in Africa would have consumed cow's blood, and the indigenous Australians would have had a high volume of seafood, right? But he found that all of these diets provided at least quadruple the mineral content, ten times the fat soluble vitamins from butter and seafoods, like including fish eggs and organ meats and all that good stuff than what the modern diet was providing. So basically rather than trying to treat a bunch of degenerative diseases with, you know, respond to them, he went and kind of looked at what kept healthy people healthy, which I think is almost a smarter approach, just trying to kind of replicate what we see people doing.

So again, the focus is on nutrient density and you and I have talked about being nutrient-seekers, Diane, and that's why I love the Weston A. Price Foundation because that's what they're all about. We talk about this in our workshops. Most of us who are on the cod liver oil/butter oil blend from Green Pasture-we came upon it, either as a direct or indirect result of the knowledge imparted by the Foundation. And I'm so grateful for that. The Foundation's really heavily involved with the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund, whose representative I think, Judith, was actually involved in a panel including Robb Wolf at PaleoFX. I believe…I missed it because I don't know if we were giving our panel at the time or what, but they were talking about, I believe, food policy and such, but these two worlds are colliding: the Paleo/Weston A. Price worlds. And it's…I think it's amazing. So a lot of us know that the Ancestral Health Symposium is coming up in a couple of weeks, which is kind of a Paleo-oriented conference, but there's also a very well established Weston A. Price conference every year. It's called Wise Traditions. That's taking place in November, this coming November in California, and I highly encourage everyone to consider attending, if you can, or at least to kind of check it out on the WestonAPrice.org site. It's a little pricey, but the education is absolutely priceless, and they feed you all weekend some of the most amazing nutrient-dense foods you can imagine. I mean, they just got…they've got bowls of kombucha out, and you know, raw milk cheeses and brawnschweiser and all kinds of just incredible food. So you're well fed, well educated all weekend. I really can't say enough about it. This year will be my third year attending. Many of our favorite Paleo-friendly researchers and friends are involved with this conference and have been for a very long time. Chris Masterjohn is deeply involved with the Foundation and Denise Minger, who is best known for her gentle and respectful, yet firm debunking of the factual disasters of the China Study and Forks Over Knives. I can't even count the number of times-you probably have, too, Diane-people have been like, what about the China Study? What about Forks Over Knives? And you just say, go to Denise's website rawfoodsos.com. She took care of this ages ago.

So anyway, this year I think Chris Kresser is involved in presenting at the conference. Last year, Paul Jaminet was there. I've learned an amazing amount from folks like Stephanie Seneff. She speaks on vitamin D, sulfur, and cholesterol. Pam Schoenfeld who spoke last year on vitamin B6, which was fascinating. So yeah, that's the Weston A. Price primer. I don't know how long I rambled, but is there anything that you need to add to that, Diane?

Diane Sanfilippo: Really just that what I like about this whole slant and this kind of came up in one of the interviews that I did. I think it was…I think it was when I was talking to Dr. Lowe, that a lot of people get really hung up on macronutrients and macronutrient ratios, and I think we all kind of fall into that trap when we're sort of newer to, you know, a whole real food, Paleo approach, we get really confused because like one of the biggest selling points on the whole approach is that we're reducing our carb intake and upping our fat intake, right? So like we need to get people's heads wrapped around that. We need them to understand like that's going to be okay. But what I love about the approach that you and I have been taking-and I think, you know, that we-take in our own lives, we may pay attention here and there to just not overdosing on things like fruit, just because we may not need that much carbohydrate or sugar…

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that just really focusing on micronutrients is so much more important and not to the point where people become obsessive or worried about, but to the point where they understand that it's so much more important that you're focusing on what nutrients your body is getting in terms of vitamins, minerals, and all the enzyme co-factors, phytochemicals, because that's really where, when we look at primitive cultures as you just mentioned, the macronutrient ratios varied so greatly and it's not that this country is, you know, fat, sick, and nearly dead, just from eating too much of one kind of food. It's really more that we're not getting the nutrient density that we need, and so this is something that I talk about a bunch in my book. When I talk about carbohydrates, it's not carbohydrates in and of themselves that are the problem. It's the refined, stripped down nutrient-poor or nutrient-depleting carbohydrates that are a problem. Like nobody was ever sick because they were eating too many sweet potatoes and fruit. Like that's just not how it works. It actually delivers a lot of nutrition, so I think…I think that's what I really love about this approach, and that it's totally, you know, to some degree it's macronutrient agnostic, right? It's really-I don't think Weston Price people really ever stress over it, do they? I mean…

Liz Wolfe: No.

Diane Sanfilippo: Maybe we're…we've been interjecting some of that, which we don't really need to do it. I'm thrilled to go to the conference this year. I think it's going to be really fun. I'm hearing a thunderstorm outside. I don't know if anybody is hearing thunder that's rolling.

Liz Wolfe: Sounded like you're just breathing really heavy for a second.

Diane Sanfilippo: No.

Liz Wolfe: I want a thunderstorm!

Diane Sanfilippo: It's crazy. It was beautiful yesterday, thundering today. Well, anyhow I'm excited. I love that this is kind of a direction that you and I take, and of course I'm always brewing new ideas, so I'm brewing a really good idea on this whole thing and melding these worlds and I think it's going to be really fun. And we love to tease people about things that are coming up, so stay tuned for a new idea brewing.

Liz Wolfe: Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Diane Sanfilippo: Exactly. Questions?

Liz Wolfe: All right, so let's start with some questions. Yeah. All right, this question number one, entitled “Organ meats.” Dunh-Dunh-Dunnnh! All right, so…Kelsey says: “Hi Liz and Diane- Thanks for taking the time to do this podcast! It has become a serious reference for my lifestyle choices! I’m making an honest attempt to Dianify [laughs] Dianify/Lizify my life.” Oh my gosh.

Diane Sanfilippo: [laughs]

Liz Wolfe: I'm like wracking my brain for all the stupid things I've said on this podcast and just hoping that she's just discarded those things as necessary. Do not read the Twilight Saga, if you haven't already, Kelsey. That should not be part of your Lizification process.

Diane Sanfilippo: [laughs]

Liz Wolfe: Sorry. “I make and drink my own bone broth, have successfully brewed my own Kombucha, and have my first batch of raw Sauerkraut days away from being done fermenting.” That is awesome.

Diane Sanfilippo: Woo hoo!

Liz Wolfe: “I’ve started taking Green” Yeah! “I've started taking Green Pastures Cod Liver/Butter Oil blend daily and being very conscious of what my body is telling me in respect to working out to avoid adrenal fatigue (I already have a very stressful job, yikes). I’ve even started cutting myself some slack because I don’t have the 6 pack abs I had in high school and college when I was an athlete. Oh yeah, and I eat a 99% Paleo diet. I slip up and have some ice cream once in awhile.” Let me just throw in before I read the rest of this question at random. I've had some people ask me about coconut milk ice cream, and I want to say, I honestly think, unless you're madly dairy intolerant, I don't like the ingredients in this coconut milk ice cream with all of these gums and you know, inulin and all kinds of wonky things. Anyway, so ice cream is my slip-up as well.

All right. Continuing with Kelsey's question. “In an effort to be as much of a [laughs]clone of you two as possible, I’m attempting to eat” This is hilarious.” I'm attempting to eat organ meat. But Oh. My. Gosh. It makes me want to vomit. I don’t know why, but just handling beef liver induces a gag reflex. I have a beef tongue in my freezer that I want to make shredded taco meat with Primal Palate's recipe, but can’t touch it without wanting to hurl. I want to get some chicken liver to make pate, but I can’t think about it without wanting to barf.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?? I am fully aware of the benefits of eating organ meat and I know I am a lot greener by eating all parts of my grass fed, locally raised meat. It frustrates me that I can eat a nutritionally devoid, mystery meat, bun-less burger from Wendy’s while traveling without thinking twice, but have a strong aversion to organ meats. Again, what is wrong with me? Is there anything I can do to stop this? I’ve been eating beef liver mixed in with meatballs so I can get the benefits, but since I know they it is in there I have to gag them down (even though they taste amazing). Please help!”

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my goodness.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: First of all, first of all, this is hysterical and the fact that anyone's like emulating us also makes me laugh because like I mean, I guess we do some great things, but I'm just like, I'm just a regular person, but I guess sometimes we're really not regular people. Like I guess we do some really crazy stuff. Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: I did have the adrenals for breakfast.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh really? Getting your vitamin C?

Liz Wolfe: I did. Yup.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, my breakfast today was like eggs and sauerkraut and liverwurst and kombucha. [laughs] So…I don't know. I mean, I don't really think there's anything wrong with you.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: I think we're just like, honestly, like organ meats are not the most beautiful, they're a weird texture, you know. It's stuff that like, it just hasn't been part of our regular lives for the past 20, 30 or more years, right? So I think that we're just not used to it. It's a different texture, you know. I cut up liver for my cat pretty often. I don't think I ever…I ever think it's lovely. Like I think it's just this weird kind of thing, like it looks, you know, it looks closer to something living and I think maybe there's some sort of like innate response that we have to something that's even closer to a recently dead animal, you know. And I think some of that response might be pretty normal and okay. Like, to see the organ meats, it's like wow, this really came from a dead animal. I don't know. So I think some of that just might be like a gut response. But I think some of it for however long like, we just didn't grow up eating those foods. I think a lot of our parents I know…my mom grew up eating liver. My grandma used to cook liver and onions. I really think that we went through this time period where we stopped being forced certain foods. And I don't know if it was because our parents just decided to rebel and be like “Well, my mom did this to me. I'm not going to do it to my kids.” Or if it was a matter of you know, there were more two income, two working people families where they had, you know, more money and less time, and so more and more convenience foods started to be relied on, and the idea of eating like the entire animal and some of the less expensive cuts maybe fell to the wayside.

And I think like Liz, what you were talking about with the Weston Price Foundation and the traditional wisdom of food, like we just have this huge disconnect over the last, you know, 30 to 50 years where we stopped trusting intuition, tradition, and things that were passed down, and we started trusting food companies and medical doctors who aren't trained on nutrition at all to tell us what to eat, and so I think it's just a huge disconnect there. It's all psychological, obviously. She said that she's eating the meatballs and they taste great. I don't know that there's really a way to get around this. I do know that some people have some sort of like physical, emotional response to food; it's like a physical response based on an emotional response. Sometimes something like EFT, and I talk about this a bunch, but sometimes EFT can work.. It's called Emotional Freedom Technique. And it starts to help detach our emotions from our physical or physiological responses, so that might be something to look into, and you might feel a little bit ridiculous while you're doing it. You're going to have to like tap on different parts of your face and your clavicle and maybe your wrists and say things like, “I think organ meats are amazing” or you're going to have to say things that reinforce positive thoughts around the organ meat, but the reality is if you think they taste good, like focus on where they're getting to in a recipe. I mean, I think pate, and I like it, I think that liver is a little strange looking, too. So I don't really think there's anything wrong with you. I would just eat it when you can, and if it means you don't think about what it is, so that you can get it down, then do it. I don't know. Do you have more for her?

Liz Wolfe: I just feel like she's doing amazing and she's probably [laughs] probably doing better on a daily basis than I am. Like, I mean, like she said, these things really are conditioned. It's a long ago thing where our food system, the way we obtain food, things are just compartmentalized, you know. This is kind of a disconnect that we're all kind of working on overcoming. And this is something I tell my clients, that I just…I say, “I know this sounds weird, but I just want to plant the idea in your head.”

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: Just pick this idea around in your head and all of us are just leaning. We're leaning toward these things that maybe we're not quite…we don't know exactly how to step into these pants. You know what I mean? It's kind of like…it's just…it's funny. So just keep visualizing it. Just keep thinking about it. Sometimes you really just have to let the ideas like sink in, kick in, and then all of a sudden, you're ready and suddenly, you're going to be calling every local farm you can, trying to find like Rocky Mountain Oysters and lamb fries, and you know, you're just going to be super excited about it.

I had the same experience. There's a blog post about this somewhere, and it's probably not even a year, not even a year and a half old, when I first grated liver into meatballs. I didn't even grate that much frozen liver into these meatballs. I made them. They were delicious. But I had the exact same response as Kelsey, and I wrote about this, like I felt heavy. Like my stomach. I just felt heavier because I was stressed out about it, you know. I felt like I had this rock in my digestive system. And it's funny because these kind of mental blocks can manifest physically, which is just really interesting. But it's like…she's doing so great. At this point with everything she's doing, moving forward with more traditional foods is just going to be icing on the cake. And if she really does want to kind of incorporate more organs, I was just reading this post on, I think it was on Talk to Me, Johnnie on John Welbourn's site. He talks about or at least references somebody who talks about “flesh building flesh.” And I think it's a really interesting way to think about organ meats. When we talk to people about building muscle, about athletic performance and stuff like that, people talk about eating a certain amount of protein per pound of body weight. We're thinking about eating muscle meat to build muscle. So really the same goes for these other things, like eating kidneys is supposed to be really good for your kidneys. Eating adrenals is supposed to be really good for your adrenals. It's not a weird idea. It's something that people incorporate all the time. Athletes incorporate it all the time. We just don't contextualize it that way. So if you really want to kind of see how incorporating these nutrients from these different organs is going to help you, you might want to order…you can order from DrRons.com-D-R-R-O-N-S.com. You can order like…it's freeze dried capsulated glandulars, and I've done that. And I've traveled with those as well. Why not? If you want to spend the money and try incorporating those as capsules at first, you can. But like I said, icing on the cake. Like, Kelsey, you're doing awesome. No worries. That's all I got.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, that's it. I don't…I got nothing else.

Liz Wolfe: All righty. All right, next question. “Dairy and Reproductive Hormones.” Jen asks: “We started the Paleo diet for 30 days and found that milk products affect my family the most. My children LOVE their sandwiches for lunch so I caved for them on wheat. But I grind the wheat and soak it before preparing bread. Other than that we stay away from all processed food. Dairy has been an eye opener. I no longer have allergies or the sniffles if the weather changes. My children seem healthier as well. My question to you is could eating better sources of meat with the combination of no dairy put a hold on ovulating for my 13 year old? She has not had a period since we started this diet. Before stopping she never really had a regular period. It was sporadic. She used to eat cheese like it was the last meal on earth. It was really unhealthy the way she would gobble it up. (No, she cannot possibly be pregnant). My thought was even though the package said that the milk contained no hormones; hormones were still entering the body. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated on the subject. Thank you.”

What are your thoughts?

Diane Sanfilippo: All right, so I absolutely think that dairy can easily be contributing to cycle changes. As much as you know, a grain and sugar-filled diet that she probably ate beforehand would. So I would have some questions for her, like when did her daughter begin her cycle? At 13, whether or not it's totally regular, you know, I don't know that that's…it may or may not even be related to her diet, like I don't know. I just..I'm curious how long she's been menstruating for because 13 is a pretty normal age to be getting a period, 12,13, even 14. I think we may be a little bit skewed because girls are getting them much earlier. I think I was probably close to 14. I'm pretty sure I was like a freshman in high school, and I think that that's pretty normal, you know. A lot of girls can get it earlier, but girls getting it much earlier than that isn't really normal. So it's common, but remember common doesn't always mean normal. So that being said, you know, if it's started a while ago, it may have been something that was more induced by her diet before, so removing those things may pulled back on some of those hormonal shifts.

So dairy in and of itself has growth promoting effects. What that means is that it's affecting insulin. It can be affecting hormones even without added hormones in the dairy. So you know, I would say especially based on like the way in which she was eating it, the sort of like addictive, compulsive style that she was eating in, that would concern me. You know, that's kind of something that kids do with sugar, and we know that sugar is highly addictive, but dairy also has what are known as casomorphins, so you can kind of like go into Google and do a little searching around, but dairy can absolutely have effects. The proteins in dairy on some brain chemistry. So it's causing her to just really compulsively overeat it. I would just say to keep that food away from her, especially if she's doing fine without it now. There's absolutely no reason why she would need the cheese to be healthier, and so from sort of like Weston A. Price perspective on dairy, you know, they would probably say well, if you're getting a grass-fed cheese that's raw, and see how she does with that. I would say if her behaviors are very strange because of the dairy, I'd just would eliminate it for a long time. Maybe farther down the road, months and months later, maybe even a year later, see some signs. Some kind of raw grass-fed cheese, test it out. Like I know some grocery stores sell them. I don't know where you live, but you can definitely get them from places like U.S. Wellness online, and test that and see if it's a difference in, you know. Like grain-fed, pasteurized cheese and a grass fed raw cheese because that can make a really big difference. But yeah, I definitely…I don't really see like, like we definitely see this a lot where hormones are being affected by food and sometimes it's negative or seems negative at first, but sometimes women will stop menstruating. And I don't think that that's…I don't always think it's a negative effect. I think it just happens to be that so much is changing in the body that that's what happens, like our body just kind of freaks out a little bit. And you know, hormonal balance is a very delicate thing. Do you have any other thoughts on this one?

Liz Wolfe: I don't think so. I think this is a little…I guess if you were eliminating…I don't know. I'd like to see her on the cod liver oil/butter oil blend, but I'd like to see everybody on that. [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I mean, if she's at all worried about the nutrients from the dairy, I mean that is a really good solution, right? Like that butter oil…

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Or you know, cooking with more grass-fed ghee and just keeping the dairy proteins out because you know, this is sort of a balance of Weston Price and Paleo perspectives is that like we respect the fact that some people really don't react well to dairy protein. So even if they're grass-fed, raw, fermented, some people just really don't react well too them, so we can get the nutrients in from the butter, or you know, grass-fed ghee that you want to cook with, right, regularly.

Liz Wolfe: I'd also say, and we have a question at the end that will tackle the bread question, but she says that they've kind of kept the wheat in. I know that there's some cross-reactivity between like issues with dairy particularly casein and issues with gluten. So working towards, you know, eliminating that, I think it's great that she soaks it and all that. I think that's a really….got to do it traditionally, if you're going to do it all, but definitely I encourage Jen to stick with the podcast and listen to this last question that we're going to address about grains because I think that's something to look at as well, just from an overall health standpoint. So…all right.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yup.

Liz Wolfe: Next question: “What's so great about Kombucha?” Julie says: “I must be behind the times… so what is so great about kombucha? I know it is fermented and I believe it helps with your digestive system. Is there a recipe to make it yourself?” And I'll just trim down my answer because I see that we've rambled and killed 45 minutes already. I don't know how that even happened, but I think kombucha's kind of one of those things where we don't have modern research on it necessarily. A couple people have conducted some research but you know, it's not something you're going to find in a medical journal that I know of. But if you see that the benefits are tangible enough for you to incorporate it, then incorporate it. There's a lot of great info out there. I get a lot of it from Hannah at Kombucha Kamp, KombuchaKamp.com, or you can find it through a link on my website. I got my kombucha brewing supplies from there. It's an ancestral food, which is what made it interesting to me in the first. it's been used in some capacity for several thousand years, if I remember correctly. It has a whole range of beneficial acids that develop as it's fermenting, especially the home brews. As much as I love GT's kombucha, which is what you get at Whole Foods, I really think homebrewed, if you can get that done, is much more powerful. There are some regulations state by state that affect the content of the kombucha that you see in stores. Portland had some really badass kombucha. I guess their laws are a little different than they are here in New Jersey, but I will do a GT's now and then just because they're delicious, and when I want something fizzy or something like that. But I'm trying to focus on perfecting my homebrew in the meantime. I guess that's all I really got to say.

Diane Sanfilippo: So for me right now, taking the place of my coffee…I've been having…

Liz Wolfe: Boooo!

Diane Sanfilippo: kombucha in the morning.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Fermented coffee? We need fermented coffee.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh my goodness.

Liz Wolfe: Put that in my good idea folder, Diane.

Diane Sanfilippo: Okay, fermented coffee. I think this is my just like n=1, what have you experiment. So I'm super big on the sauerkraut. I like homemade. I have been eating homemade kraut from batches I made with Hayley back in probably like March. And we made so much back then that I was still eating it like a week or two ago. That's, you know, you don't need that much of it all the time. A quarter of a cup-ish a day. But so I've been doing, you know, plenty of sauerkraut very regularly and I'll tell you, I was on the kombucha kick for…very heavily for like the last month of working on the book. Which was like, really intensely like May and June, into most of June. But I would say even like this whole first half of this year, I've been doing really it's just been the GTs because I haven't made it myself and as much as I love food projects, like we've been in the kitchen that they've been remodeling in our house. So I haven't been able to do a lot of projects. So long story short, I don't know if it was the combination of, you know, sauerkraut and kombucha. I don't take any other probiotic supplements, but knock on wood, I was extremely stressed and not sleeping that well, and I did not get sick once. And that's usually for me, that's usually the trigger right there. It's just like being up too late, being very stressed, you know. I've been in and out of the gym, and there's plenty of germs spreading around there, and I didn't get sick. So I don't know. I mean, I think like you said, Liz, everyone kind of has to feel it out for yourself. Do you like the way it tastes? I know some people really hate it. And I think it's worthwhile to kind of get into it by buying it. See what you like, and then start to make it. I think that's totally valid. Same thing with the raw sauerkraut, and the same thing goes for that probiotic content. You're definitely going to get more from sauerkraut that you make at home than sauerkraut in the store for that same reason. Like a lot of them, you know. Like I know like the Bubbie's brand, for example, might be sort of flash pasteurized. There's not as much probiotic content there.

Liz Wolfe: Right.

Diane Sanfilippo: There are some good brands in stores, like the Farmhouse Kraut is my absolute favorite on the West Coast. And I know there's a couple of really good brands here on the East Coast, too, that we can get in like some of our Whole Foods and food co-ops. But making it yourself is really just nothing that beats it, and it's way, way cheaper. So the same thing with the kombucha, making that, way cheaper. Yeah, I mean, so my…your answer is that my health has been a lot better, so I don't know. I'm kind of…I'm pro.

Liz Wolfe: You're pro. I think getting a variety of ferments is really important, and I think getting that…making them yourself, like you do with the kraut and the fermented carrots is awesome because it really kind of…that culture responds to your native environment, to the needs of your particular environment.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: So I think that can be really enriching to health.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, and I can't do yogurt. Like I keep trying different forms. I've tried grass-fed yogurt. Unfortunately the one that I tried was like a non-fat because they just didn't have one otherwise, but I wanted to see how I did with like a grass-fed yogurt.

Liz Wolfe: Ugh.

Diane Sanfilippo: I know. It was weird.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: It was good. It actually tasted really good, but I am so used to like having fat in my food now that it was kind of weird. It's almost impossible to find like a full-fat grass-fed yogurt. But you know, I'm always trying them again, but to this point in time, they give me really bad stinky gas, and it's like completely obvious that it was the yogurt because I don't change anything else. And I ate that and within maybe a half an hour, I can tell, so that's a sign that you're not digesting food right. Don't eat it. [laughs]

Liz Wolfe: And you go over that in your book. The Poop Pageant.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, the Poop Pageant.

Liz Wolfe: Getting people to buy your book.

Diane Sanfilippo: If only for page 75, yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, if you…the entire price of the book is well worth that one page. FYI. All right, so the next question kind of includes kombucha a little bit as well. Kelly says: “Hi ladies, I love, love, love your podcast!” 3 loves, that's awesome. Thank you, Kelly. “I look forward to downloading the latest episode each week! My question is regarding digestive enzymes & kombucha. I’ve heard you say that a person can take too many of these types of supplements. How would I know if I’m over-supplementing? I tapered from taking digestive enzymes 2 to 3 meals a day to about 4 ounces of Kombucha daily and was feeling really good and “regular”. I went on a week’s cruise and did take the digestive enzymes with dinner every night, but still felt like my system was out of whack from the trip (I tried to eat as Paleo as possible, but did enjoy more alcohol than usual on the trip).” Hey, it happens.

“Upon returning home, I bumped my Kombucha intake to 8 ounces daily, half before breakfast and half before another meal. It wasn’t helping so I’ve added digestive enzymes to 1 or 2 meals. Now I have some upper intestinal distress (I think it’s cramping) and I’m still not regular again. Could I b e overdoing it and causing problems similar to not having enough digestive enzymes? Thanks ladies!” Do you think I need to read the rest of what she eats?

Diane Sanfilippo: I don't…no, I don't know that it's so critical.

Liz Wolfe: I think it's a little…I'm a little bit confused. Maybe you can shed some light on this, Diane, with your answer. I think there's kind of a…some different things that are being conflated here. I don't really think…maybe the kombucha and the digestive enzymes are necessarily used for the same end. Hahaha. See, these jokes…that was kind of funny. That was not intentional. So…

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes, they're not. So like the point of the digestive enzymes..typically, digestive enzymes are secreted by like your pancreas and you know, we're getting this stuff into the mix, just natural secretions, that kind of flow in. You know, having sufficient stomach acid should help your digestive enzymes secretion.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: She doesn't really tell us why she was even taking digestive enzymes, so I don't know like what made her think she needed them. But if she's having some upper…I don't even know, upper intestinal distress? I don't think I've ever heard that before? Cramping? If you're taking enzymes that also have HCL in them, so if it's like…I think is it the Super Enzymes, the NOW Super Enzymes, do those have HCL in them?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: That can definitely cause some cramping. I don't…I really haven't heard of just enzymes themselves causing that, but potentially taking more acid than you need could, you know, cause that response. I would honestly just back off the digestive enzymes. See how you do. Make sure you're eating soluble fibers, so stuff like sweet potato and squash, the fleshy part of the vegetable, and that you're getting in the fermented food, so I would also make sure you're getting in another kind of probiotic, like the sauerkraut. And just see if that helps, but I would check out what kind of enzymes you have, and if they do have HCL in them, I would change it up. I just don't know…I'm not really clear on why she's taking the digestive enzymes.

Liz Wolfe: She feels like they help, I can see that. But I think we may just need to kind of flesh out this story a little bit more before we can give a good kind of read on what's going on.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, one other thing too with alcohol. I noticed that even like one or two drinks affects my system very, very severely. So I know that if I have a few drinks, I definitely get kind of stuffy and sniffly, and that's a direct response to what the alcohol is doing to our gut. So we're getting that response because it's promoting leaky gut. We're having responses that way. You know, alcohol is a big leaky gut promoter, so if there's a reason why people don't want to drink, besides avoiding gluten, besides avoiding hangovers, you know, besides avoiding the fact that it's taxing your liver because we need to detoxify, alcohol promotes leaky gut. So all these people who are eliminating certain foods to help heal leaky gut are still drinking, you know, again, that's kind of like your choice of how you want to enjoy and live your life, and that's cool with me. But if you think that it's not affecting you, you're wrong. [laughs] So that's kind of like one of the other…you know, I was in Las Vegas last weekend. Ii don't think I consumed one whole alcoholic beverage, and that's not me trying to be like proud or…

Liz Wolfe: Boooo!

Diane Sanfilippo: It's just like…I was like…I was so overtired and so jetlagged from being all over the place, and I was up til 5 or 6 in the morning as it was, and I was like, I just don't feel like drinking. I don't want to be hungover. I don't feel like being a mess right now until 6 in the morning, and like I had half a drink one night and half a drink the other, but then I started drinking, I was like, I don't even want this. So I mean, I could dance like a fool without alcohol[laughs] so I don't really need it.

Liz Wolfe: I can't. [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: So I was just like…it's just one of those things where you know, it really can mess up your digestive as can being away from your sort of normal food. Doing your best when you're on vacation to keep some of those normal things in, sometimes vacation can be okay on digestion because you're more relaxed, but sometimes the change in food and the change in schedule really messes things up and backs people up. So I'm really worked, but I think we might need more information.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I think so. I saw that picture that you posted of that girl in Vegas who

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh God.

Liz Wolfe: like ate whole prime rib and then passed out. Woke up, passed out, and then woke up at the table. I don't know.

Diane Sanfilippo: This was at 4 or 5 in the morning. It was crazy. We went into that restaurant and it was dark out, and we came out and it was daylight, and I was like, I need to go to sleep.[laughs]

Liz Wolfe: Oh my gosh. They must have the best people watching in the whole planet.

Diane Sanfilippo: That was take her…this was…I Instagrammed this picture. This poor girl. But the waiter came to like come clear her food away, and then she woke up and was like, no, and she like kind of rallied and finished the plate. It was crazy.

Liz Wolfe: [laughs] Hilarious.

Diane Sanfilippo: So we were really kind of cheering her on from afar. It was pretty funny.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, I laugh.

Diane Sanfilippo: But I digress. So…

Liz Wolfe: All right, so here's the last question. All right, Sarah says…the question is entitled “Sourdough starter instead of soaking? Spelt over whole wheat?”

“Hi! I’ve been listening to your show and loving all the resources! My husband and I have transitioned to a Paleo template but I still do some breads for our kids. I keep a loaf of Ezekiel bread in the freezer for occasional toast with almond butter…I make it…I make with soaked, dehydrated, roasted almonds” Oh okay, she makes her own almond butter with soaked, dehydrated, roasted almonds…or she makes French toast. “I also make soaked tortillas to have on hand for when we’re out and need a quick snack. I’ve been debating going to a sourdough starter instead of soaking. Is one better over the other? Is there a kind of flour that would be better- for example, Spelt over Whole Wheat? Thank you!”

So this is a little bit out of my area of expertise. I do have a little bit of knowledge of kind of the way to tackle ancestral grains, but generally my approach is just transition people away from that as much as possible. I love that she's, you know, doing the soaking and trying seek out more…I don't know, ancestrally appropriate options. But while soaking and sprouting are definitely good things, and it's what you find with Ezekiel bread, that actually kind of enhances, from my understanding, the bioavailability of the gluten. So you are by no means getting any kind of gluten free type bread in choosing Ezekiel bread. If I'm remembering correctly.

Now the Weston A. Price Foundation at their conferences, they have run classes or demonstrations on making gluten free sourdough in that the gluten protein is fully broken down so as it cannot cause problems. That's my understanding. I'd definitely look into that at WestonAPrice.org. I have to say I like spelt much better than wheat because it's really an ancestral grain that, by my understanding, has not changed as much as modern wheat has. So when I have a client that absolutely isn't prepared to give up bread, in lieu of like Ezekiel bread, which a lot of folks are using nowadays, I'll send them to the online store at Berkshire Mountain Bakery, and I'll have them order spelt based bread. It's not ideal in my opinion at all, but it will do in a pinch. That's pretty much all I got.

Diane Sanfilippo: So a couple of things. First of all, if she does want to do this, I am also kind of more of a fan of the gluten free grains. Like I know that Chris Kresser will do like fermented buckwheat and then make like crepes or pancakes out of that. I don't like for people in the home to kind of perpetuate the need for bread. But that being said, like I recognize, you know, even my parents, for example, like today they woke up and my dad made coconut flour pancakes, and like that's a huge win. You know, for my dad to just not use regular flour. This is the guy who was using, you know, high gluten flour to make his own bagels and they're amazing bagels, but nobody in the family has been eating them for about 10 years now., which is like kind of sad for the food artisan and it's kind of sounds like there is a little bit of that type of food artisan, you know. If you're doing the whole soaking, sprouting process, and you're making your own almond butter, kind of like, good for you and kudos, but I think one of the things that that people really just, you know, don't remember is that we really want to just shift the perspective. So she says something about keeping a snack on hand, you know, these tortillas. Just get some other kind of snack, you know. Get the kids used to eating something different. Get into making your own jerky or even dehydrated fruit. Maybe some dehydrated sweet potatoes, that kind of thing.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Hmm?

Liz Wolfe: Veggie chips, yeah, like sweet potato or PaleoKits.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Coconut.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mmm,yup. Absolutely. And the other thing about Ezekiel bread is that one of the things that happen when you're eating the fermented or the soaked sprouted grains is that a totally different form of the proteins that are in gluten, I think it's the wheat germ agglutinin, WGA, it can be abbreviated Wheat Germ Agglutinin, becomes a little bit more exposed, and like you were saying, Liz, sort of more bioavailable to us or can affect us more. And wheat germ agglutinin is one of the components of a protein that actually causes more brain fog. So sometimes people aren't getting the digestive distress or some of the other effects, but especially if you notice the kids maybe not thinking as clearly or sharply, that could be something to just lookout for, if they're reacting to it. Again, I just wouldn't…I just wouldn't want to rely on that stuff as much. So keeping it on hand vs., maybe making it now and then, I like the idea of you know, you make it once. You prepare it overnight, and then you make it and there's not anything to just grab at really quickly.

Liz Wolfe: Cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: Cool. That's all I think.

Liz Wolfe: That's all she wrote. All right. So that's it for this week. And unlike the last several weeks, I will be back, two weeks in a row, next week, so everybody can tune in.

Diane Sanfilippo: Woo hoo!

Liz Wolfe: [xxx] sys that. [laughs]

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I don't know what we're going to talk about next week.

Liz Wolfe: All right.

Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, like on the one hand, I want to talk about the book and tell people about it, and on the other hand, I'm all over the place talking about it with other people, so I'm kind of like, maybe I'll just point them to all of these other interviews.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, do it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Cool. All right.

Liz Wolfe: All right, so until next week, find Diane at BalancedBites.com. Find me at CaveGirlEats.com. You also have a portal to my professional website: LizWolfeNTP.com. And we'll see everybody next week. Peace out.

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